Tussius
Joined: Aug 27, 2006
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 Posted:
Oct 17, 2006 - 16:34 |
 
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Hey all.
I'm trying to improve my game, and humans in particular. I seem to having a hard time defending against box-playing teams more than the fast ones. I realize that I have trouble beating the elves as well, but I think it's more in getting more tackle and perhaps eventually some MB to get a few off the pitch. Perhaps I'm wrong, though. Feel free to set me straight!
The boxes however, are very hard to defend against. Do someone have any tips (I've read all the newbie-threads and more or less all recent threads in this forum)?
I know about setting the players one square from their box, but this rarely works out well for me. They are normally able to break out of my line and advance fast towards another TD. Apparently I'm doing something wrong, but what? How do some coaches get to 170+ CR? Or even more? They must know something that I don't (I don't believe that I'm more unlucky than others).
And how about setups vs. the two archtypes(box and passing)? What does the defensive lineup look like for humans?
What major skills should I try to develop my players towards?
If anyone would like to comment on one of my games and give me some pointers towards enlightenment I'd be very happy (and other would probably learn as well). Some pointers towards games that I might learn from (and towards what I should look at and learn from in that particular case) would also be very useful  |
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PARC
Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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| Posted:
Oct 17, 2006 - 17:06 |
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Hi, not long ago i was the one asking for advices for humans and now i played a few games i can give u some advices that seem to work for me.
three free tips :
1st make the most powerfull team u can vs your worst enemy but flexible enough are u going to play mostly vs elves or cages?
2nd compare your team with your oppo's team, no need to play every team, dont play with 1 tackle vs zons or with 1 guard vs dwarves.
3rd dont make a plan improvise
try to build your team with at most 13 players and u have 2 much cash it gives u unecessary tr and i would fire David Hasselhoff
if u have trouble vs strengh teams try to kick deep as u have kick and go for the ball with 1 catcher and 1 or 2 blitzers but dont neglet your defense and try to lure them to the sides to avoid the center cage and try to push them out of bounds or delay them as much as u can use your 4 guards wisely to protect each other gg setup is much harder to push then xg (x- no guard player g-guard player) whenu can put 2 tackles in the ball carrier to force a handoff or a dodge roll, if u get the ball from them dont score right away hold the ball to not give them the change to score back, if u score on turn 2 they probably score on turn 7 or 8.
if u play vs zons with 1 tackle they will foul him out and u have no tackle vs 11 dodgers hard hard but possible.
vs dwarves it easier but it really help if they dont outguard u 2 much because most your players will have 3 st but they will bash u all the game, try to spread them, guard is useless if u dont have anyone nearby, vs orcs the hardest team, try win vs the other races first leave them and chaos for when u feel more confident.
for skills the must have are 4 guards 1 dirty player block all over, very good if u get +ag for catchers sidesstep and divingtackle are great
cya and great be the human teams |
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Tophat
Joined: Jun 01, 2006
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| Posted:
Oct 17, 2006 - 17:21 |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Oct 17, 2006 - 17:22 |
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The easiest way to defeat a caging team is to prevent it from getting formed in the first place, so agressively attack the ball carrier before they get in a safe pocket. Granted, some of the time that option isn't available (on a touchback for example) in which case you must try to separate the cage from the rest of the team.
Something that works is to position your players so that the cage cannot advance without spending a blitz. If you combine that with marking the players at the back of the cage and separating the rest of the team, you might get a shot at the ball carrier. |
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The plural of anecdote isn't data. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Oct 17, 2006 - 18:08 |
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As torsoboy says, the best way to beat a cage is to get the ball before it gets into it. To that end, I always set up an aggressive defence with Humans, with two Blitzers (or other fast players) set up well forward in each wide zone (sometimes even risking a Quick Snap). And of course I will kick deep into the corners as well.
I'll generally use the same set-up against elves or bashers (although against elves I may kick short). Against elves, you're less likely to get the ball, but the set-up may force them to score quickly (most elf teams are happy to score quickly anyway) which gives me more time to bash them.
Of course, sometimes the cage will get formed anyway. Sadly, there is no magic trick (except fireball, that is!) for breaking a cage - if there were, Orcs and the rest would be out of business! The trouble is that middle-ground teams like Humans are probably the worst equipped to deal with cages. They aren't tough enough to stand up to them man-to-man (or at least, not on a regular basis if you want to keep a healthy team) but don't have the agility to just go in and come out somehow with the ball. Looking at your team though, that ST 5 Blitzer does look like a useful tool for cage-breaking!! |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 17, 2006 - 18:36 |
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Dwarf cages have some problems against st5 players (like Ogres) if you mark the Trollslayers. Block+Sidestep for the Catchers is nice if your oponent does not have loads of Tackle... and fouling against Khemri Mummies or RSC+Claw Chaos Warriors helps against cages.
...back...(mostly) |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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Oct 17, 2006 - 18:36 |
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...and with double posting, wonderfull |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Oct 17, 2006 - 19:26 |
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I usually use a Blodge Sidestep Divingtackle catcher to stick to the cage.
Their survival rate is not astonishing, but they are annoying as hell.
oh, and also getting StandFirm on doubles for blitzers instead of dodge also helps stopping cages.
Of course, a SF-Dodge blitzer is top notch. |
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Tussius
Joined: Aug 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Oct 17, 2006 - 22:17 |
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Lots of helpful hints here. Thank a lot, guys!
I too thought the ST5 blitzer in combination with my guard ogre, ST4 thrower (my AG4 thrower just died) and them blodge-DT-catchers should help a lot against cages. Lately I've done better in making it hard for them, but it's still far from the level of the pros. I must be doing something wrong with my blitzer. One of the problems seems to be that they blitz him (or one of the catchers depending on how they play) asap. The catchers with DT seems very useful against speedy teams, though. Except for when they just get put in the hospital instantly. I'm not too afraid of losing them, however, as they don't take too long to develop.
Lately I've been toying with the idea of having 4 catchers (or at least 3) on my team with DT aginst the fast teams, and using the strength-guys to avoid the boxes (or break them up) against the slower teams.
How about setups? Any ideas?
I'm thinking something like this vs. a box-team:
|....L..O..L....|
|.BB.........BB.|
|....CT...LC....|
The T is my strong thrower, the blitzers have guard except for the one with ST5, and both catchers are blodge-DT (one with SS). The lineman at the back is has block-kick.
Or are there other setups I should try? |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2006 - 00:40 |
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Don't put your ogre on the LOS if you can, he's way to expensive to give away free blocks with.
Also, the blitzers should be set up in a staggered position, so your opponent cannot crowdpush a player on first turn with frenzy (or on 2nd turn with a push) like this:
| Code: |
|....|.L.L.L.|....|
|....|.......|....|
|..L.|.L...L.|.L..|
|.B..|B.....B|..B.|
|....|.......|....|
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_________________
The plural of anecdote isn't data. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2006 - 01:16 |
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1- I find my Blodge DT Sidestep catchers invaluable against Orcs, not against fast teams. I put them next to a tackle-less side of the cage and wait for them to push me inside thanks to sidestep. Yes, it's risky, but more often than not it works.
2- Use your linemen to tie up BoBs. BoBs can't dodge, so you basically can tie up them for a whole lot of turns with a simple lino.
3- Orcs do not have your speed and (more important) they not used to do the running thing or the dodging thing. They usually just bash bash bash. They are rock-solid, that's true, but if you can put enough tackle zones they will have the worst day in their life when they try to move the ball. Remember: av8 breaks, but it really doesn't break as much as you fear.
4- Your ST5 blitzer is your main hitting force. You have to protect him, and keep him free of tackle zones as much as you can. One way to do so is to put a lino one square away from the cage, then blitz the corner of the cage with your blitzer, putting the blitzed orc next to the lino. Do not follow, and run backwards with your movement. This way you are always ready for a blitz while giving little to no chance to your opponent to blitz your ST5 monster.
5- Use your guard ogre. To have a 2d block on him, even Bobs will need two assists. A St5 guard is invaluable. Put him in front of the cage, or even better put him next to blitzers. Bobs rarely have tackle, blitzer usualy do. So if you use your ogre to tie up a blitzer, your opponent can't use that blitzer for blitzing your blodge sidestep DT.
6- Hunt down the tacklers. Don't go after BoBs with multiple assists: you will waste three men to hit a Ma4 Ag2. Take out the blitzers and orcs will lose the game.
7- Dodging with AG3 is doable. Keep a reroll to move that tied-up lino, if you really need to. Opponents often expect AG3 to be stuck if put in a tackle zone.
8- Just to contradict #7: remember that ag3 dodges FAIL. Do not take dodges for granted, not even for catchers. 1/9 failure is more than enough to screw up half your games.
You will notice that almost all of these tactics require you to stay in contact with Orcs. Yes. That's the point. Don't fear them. You will eventually get the spanking, but more often than not you will screw up their plans and will find a way to get to the ball before they can reorganize. Orc coaches rarely know discipline. They just see a 2d block and they hit. Use that to your advantage. I have 84 games vs orcs with my humans and I keep a winning record because I just refuse to give ground. Fight, let them block you. If you don't die they're screwed sooner or later. If you just step backwards you will give them time to think.
There's a thing everybody knows about cages: it's easy to form them, it's difficult to keep them intact, it's very had to let them advance, it's nearly impossible to form them again under pressure.
Always remember that.
At least, for me it works. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Oct 18, 2006 - 02:50 |
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Okay, something I forgot to mention in my previous post …
The key tactic against cages is clock management (or that's what they call it I think).
Let's say you receive the ball with your Humans at the start of the game. <i>Don't score too quickly!</i> If you score in two turns, that will give your opponent about 7 turns to score while beating up your team. This is exactly what he wants, so don't allow it! Instead, try to score in about four or even five (or more) turns.
This will put your (bashy) opponent under great pressure. Most likely, his team is not built to score in just four or five turns. Especially if you kick deep, this requires him to move the ball a long way in a short time. To do it without passing or handing off will be very tricky indeed.
If you're very lucky, he will mess something up during this, give you the ball and you will score again. But instead let's just assume that he fails to score that half. Now it's 1-0 to you at half-time. Now he needs to score twice to win. If he still hopes to win, this means he has to score quickly, taking some risks, and then hope to snatch the ball off you to get the winning TD. More likely, he will just go for the draw, as anything more ambitious gives you a strong chance to win.
Either way, you have won a small victory, by controlling when and under what circumstances your opponent scores, and you will have probably got a tie at the very least. |
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PARC
Joined: Sep 06, 2006
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Oct 18, 2006 - 10:02 |
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Another good tip : leasten to JanMattys |
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Idolen
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Oct 18, 2006 - 10:32 |
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Yeah... Listen to JanMattys, and if you don't succeeds then... try another race |
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Hank
Joined: Oct 26, 2003
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| Posted:
Oct 18, 2006 - 12:34 |
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My most recent game with humans vs orcs at ts 210is, for a rather clumsy offense watch the first half, but the defending in the second half was rather good:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=1404451
I dont actually steal the ball and score with some brilliant move, but the ball is at least stripped loose and the orcs arent able to go forward.
I favor a set-up a bit like torso´s, but i have more speed in it with 2 catchers and some blitzers already in the second line to be able to get that extra square. The kick goes short to be able to apply pressure earlier (since Madtias, as the good coach he is, havent set all his people on LoS), and unlike Jan I put tackle zones on the ag3 instead of the black orcs to 1. not get beaten down so easy and 2. Well, prevent them from moving!
As you can see the I take a lot of chances, 3+ dodging and 1d blocks to be able to break the cage, in my experience this just has to be done against more guards and stronger players. And when you do apply that pressure, go in 100%. I was down one goal from the first half so I wasnt so patient as I usually am put anyway often an agressive defense works best.
On the teambuilding - I like to take at least MB on one blitzer (who do much of the blitzing...)early on too have just that little more % to send out some nasty opponent. Usually my first double on a blitzer goes to frenzy as it prevent the opponents movement along the sidelines a lot. Tackle on blitzers comes a bit later as the linos can get it also.
For the throwers I like to develop one into a "pure" thrower with accurate, safe throw (strong arm on doubles) as this lets me decide who gets the spps for tds a lot more. That all for now! |
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