PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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 Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 16:12 |
 
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I think Iam missing something here. Let me get this straight. You put your team in the "BOX" you then go into the new #Box channell and tell the room that you are hiring this and that. THen the match is auto assigned, which you have no controll over, and then you start your game. You realize to your horror that the one guy in the room out of 50 coaches told everyone he was buying the count. Thus a 1 in 49 chance of being matched up with him. You get nuffled and draw the low down coach and then come unglued on the unfairness of the system and vow to come up with a better idea. So how can you tell your opponeet, who you have no idea who it will be, that you are going to buy some stuff for your game? |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 16:22 |
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| Quizard wrote: | | You have to realize that this is the first league on fumbbl that features true blood bowl matches. There is no way to influence your teams development in any way by choosing your opposition by any criteria. Which means, you have to build your teams in a relatively universal manner (good at a lot of things, possibly everything) and you have to use any and all resources you got to deal with the next opponent you are beeing assigned. |
This is not the first league on FUMBBL that features true bloodbowl matches, heck it dosent even do that. What it does do is provide balanced matches on a relatively large scale.
Go to league and join a well established scheduled league. They will have a fixed schedule each season but as the seasons progress teams will deveolpe and change divisions so you have a nice blend of having to deal with your imidiate oposition and building for the future. Freebooters, stars, and wizards can all play a massive part in league.
| Quote: | | I would not be taking the time to write this article if i wasn't convinced that the Bloackbox division would profit enormously from this concept if it was technically posiible to realize it, and if the participating coaches would honor the code of telling their opponents before the game what freebooters they will use. |
I would not be telling that it wont work if it was going to work... all it does is open the division to a massive, easy, and accessible abuse (cash hoarding). I dont see that as beneficial. |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Quizard
Joined: May 31, 2008
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 16:22 |
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Hiring Freebooters before you know the opposing team not concurrent with LRB4. And it takes away a tactical concept. Freebooters are meant to be used as a concious tactical measure to temporarily add something to your team that it really could use in the upcoming game.
I acknowledge the TS issue. (point, argumentation).
Kowever this assumes that a lot of things. There is the possible scenario where two teams are even in TS and the TS matchup is unbalanced by the star. there is also the scenario where one team is already favoured in TS and the matchup is heavily unbalanced. Plus there is the scenrio where one team is at a slight disadvantage in TS and the freebooters turn that into a slight advantage. It is also thinkable that a matchup is only exactly fitting in TS after the previously inferior team hired. Then there is the possibility that someone can counterhire an even more fowerful freebooter.
My point is, thats not a problem.
One could adapt to the situation by always keeping some cash availiable to be able to counter- hire for example. That's what i would do in such an environment. And if someone showed up with a star, then you could at least react with a fitting counter-hire and not be stuck with Griff when who you really need for this game is Zug.
Edit: Clarification on my wording. To my knowledge It's the first relevant open division on FUMBBL that features true Blood Bowl matches that cannot be manipulated by choosing opponents. |
Last edited by Quizard on %b %10, %2008 - %16:%Nov; edited 1 time in total |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 16:25 |
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| PainState wrote: | | I think Iam missing something here. Let me get this straight. You put your team in the "BOX" you then go into the new #Box channell and tell the room that you are hiring this and that. THen the match is auto assigned, which you have no controll over, and then you start your game. You realize to your horror that the one guy in the room out of 50 coaches told everyone he was buying the count. Thus a 1 in 49 chance of being matched up with him. You get nuffled and draw the low down coach and then come unglued on the unfairness of the system and vow to come up with a better idea. So how can you tell your opponeet, who you have no idea who it will be, that you are going to buy some stuff for your game? |
The current system is that you have your team (complete with stars etc) and then when Christers says "activate if you want to be in this round" you click the activate button beside your team. You may not modify your roster after you know your opponent.
What Quizzard is suggesting is to allow people to hire stars/freebooters/wizards after they know their opponent. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced."
Last edited by SillySod on %b %10, %2008 - %16:%Nov; edited 1 time in total |
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Cloggy
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 16:27 |
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*enable sarcasm mode*
Given the fact that the division is overrun by dwarfs, khemri and orcs (yay! I actually inserted the kneejerk rant) you might as well just buy a wizard before putting your team into the Blackbox. It's great value for it's 5 TS!
Other than that, the aforementioned teams will cripple you bad enough that you won't be able to afford any stars anyway 
*disable sarcasm mode*
Or to just put it simply: I think this division was created to avoid the kind of behavior described in the first post. Even though I have my reservations about the way the division will develop I'm not really concerned that sneak hiring stars and wizards will be a big issue.
This may be naive of me, but we all have something to gain by NOT sabotaging this cool new way to get matchups, so the occasional *censored* aside I think we will all play the team as submitted. |
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Proud owner of three completed Ranked grids, sadly lacking in having a life. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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| Quizard wrote: | | You have to realize that this is the first league on fumbbl that features true blood bowl matches. |
That is one HELL of a broad statement and easy demonstrated to be untrue in many many ways. Probably the truest we have on fumbbl to RL BB as it was intended is WIL or SWL. nothing in any open enviroment is ever gojng to be as close as that.
| Quizard wrote: | | There is no way to influence your teams development in any way by choosing your opposition by any criteria. Which means, you have to build your teams in a relatively universal manner (good at a lot of things, possibly everything) and you have to use any and all resources you got to deal with the next opponent you are beeing assigned. |
Utter balls. The spread of races in B will give the 'optimum' build for all races. So we may well end up with more homogeneity as everyone builfds towards the 'average' B division game and less people feel they have a chance at surviviing if they try more experimental races/rosters/skill choices. See? I can hypothesise groundlessly too! But why is this a good thing? Why is lack of diversity, creativity and individuality to be aimed for?
When you beggining suppositions are this fundamentally flawed, why should your conclusions and then somewhat singular view of the way to solve all fumbbl problems as you percieve them (not uniquely ending with the site played EXACTLY the way you wish it was rather than as an average of the concensus view) not be merely ignored.
Piffle. Think a bit harder and from perspectives other than your own please. |
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Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
Last edited by PurpleChest on %b %10, %2008 - %16:%Nov; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 16:35 |
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Thanks Sod, now I know. Still think its a non-issue but Ok. |
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Quizard
Joined: May 31, 2008
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 16:40 |
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The reason for this divisions very existance is cherrypicking and the fact that some folks are sick of beeing forced to cherrypick. People can accept to be subject of chance when they are about to play a game. Sometimes you will end up lucky and get an fairly easy opponent, sometimes things will get tough, but hopefully not to extreme in any directon.
No more "i don't play your team if it wears pink shirts".
So this is a place for people who know this game. Who know how to cage and brake cages, who know how to foul and avoind beeing fouled and for people who know how to stall and how to make stalling a costly strategy.
All of that is new to the majority of people here who choose to simply ignore parts of the game.
I fully understand the importance of having the black box genenerating "fair" matchups. However, i am convinced that if it were allowed to freeboot, that would provide coaches with an additional means to further improve that balance.
I cannot see people wasting money on stars to turn a match that is slightly in their favour into a farce very often. Buying another reroll after the game is too tempting imho. I think it would be much more commonplace to use freebooting (especially wizzards and regular freebooters, but also secret weapons) as a specific means to even the odds in matchups that are tough already for the freebooting side. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 17:02 |
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| PainState wrote: | | Thanks Sod, now I know. Still think its a non-issue but Ok. |
Trouble is that it would be easy to abuse (much easier than it is in [R]anked) because you know that your opponent cant turn the game down. So you could actually build a strategy around it, you could get a bunch of humans and then hire the count every game and be relatively certain that you're going to have a big advantage during the game. To me that defeats the point of blackbox.
| Quizard wrote: | My point is, thats not a problem.
One could adapt to the situation by always keeping some cash availiable to be able to counter- hire for example. That's what i would do in such an environment. And if someone showed up with a star, then you could at least react with a fitting counter-hire and not be stuck with Griff when who you really need for this game is Zug. |
Ok, I see where you're coming from there, however...
That situation isnt one which you get in tabletop and its one which totally skews game balance.
In a tabletop league you have a relatively restricted pool of opponents and generally everyone plays about the same number of games. That means that the speed at which a team developes becomes important, teams which constantly star hire are less of a threat because it isnt a workable strategy. Over the course of ten games a team that hires a star each time probably wont get very far at all while the teams that went for ordinary development paths will be rocketing ahead. Star hiring is still effective for key games but not as a strategy, hence you just dont have to keep a large amount of spare cash because you dont really need to worry about stars on a regular basis.
In contrast, if you're in the [B]lackbox division you dont have to worry too much about your teams development because you will only be scheduled against teams which are at about the same level as your own. That means that you can afford to have a star hiring strategy. I think thats fine in general but not really a good thing if a star hiring strategy means you are getting much easier games since the point of [B] is to generate balanced games.
| Quote: | | I cannot see people wasting money on stars to turn a match that is slightly in their favour into a farce very often. Buying another reroll after the game is too tempting imho. I think it would be much more commonplace to use freebooting (especially wizzards and regular freebooters, but also secret weapons) as a specific means to even the odds in matchups that are tough already for the freebooting side. |
You're looking at how a bloodbowl team developes normally rather than at how you could abuse the system. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 17:07 |
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yes, bigmac, because expecting everyone on the site to adher to a "gentleman's code of conduct" is a good idea....
it's not going to happen...rosters are locked after scheduling for a reason....
quit trying to exploit TS matchups
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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Quizard
Joined: May 31, 2008
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 17:15 |
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Well i think in the Blackbox Division even the most powerful teams can get maimed because the chance to run into an equally loaded powerhouse is always given. So in my oppinion there will be a lot of rebuilding going on without the luxury to choose opponents that make it particularly easy to rebuild.
So an incentive to "waste" money will spice things up imho. So someone who is carrining around a huge treasure chest will be have to think about opening it every once in a while when morg knocks on his door.
I really can't see people "wasting" a lot of money willingly when they consider a match in their favour already. I am truly convinced especially stars would be used as damage soakers most of the time when someone has to play against chaos for example, and is scared regardles of TS.
Also, TS is not the ultimate tool to judge balance. One Piling On Claw RSC Multi Block Rat Ogre can kill 4 Players in 2 Turns (exageration!) and i dont want to recalculate TS at that point... Its blood bowl after all and its totaly out of control most of the time.
So i stick with my original point: hirelings should be used conciously, and not "into the blue" because you may end up hireing lord borak in a game vs. some halflings that you would have killed without him anyway and then lack him against the next best orc. I think the more tactical decisions availiable the better. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 17:16 |
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All you guys who keep throwing around the WIL and SWL need to show some repsect for the #1 north american league THE NWL! BAH! no respect. |
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Hatten_inc
Joined: Jun 22, 2008
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 17:23 |
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As alot of people have already said the match-up are based on TS, so changing TS after the match have been scheduled isn't quite fair.
You (Quizard) are saying that it would be more a part of the game, but you should realise that it would mostly help all the bashy teams to get sneaky stars to smash up them soft teams or just a nobbla to take out that annoying blodging superstar av7 elf. Since it will be pretty damn rare (even more so in the Blackbox divison) that an elf team that would need just one or two more freeboters would actually have the money for it.
If it should work it should be more like the LRB5 rules. Say a match-up is made between two teams, first team have a TS of 145 and second has one of 141, then team number two should be allowed to hire freeboters, wizard and even stars untill they reached the same TS as the other team. Ofcourse that would be hard to implement i think, and most of the time a time wouldn't be able to hire anything.
Just my 2 cents! And why are all of you sitting in here chatting when blackbox is open?! go out and play..  (I know I should be doing that myself..) |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 17:30 |
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| Quizard wrote: | | The reason for this divisions very existance is cherrypicking and the fact that some folks are sick of beeing forced to cherrypick. People can accept to be subject of chance when they are about to play a game. Sometimes you will end up lucky and get an fairly easy opponent, sometimes things will get tough, but hopefully not to extreme in any directon. |
actually, no the reason for the existence of this division is to create a realm that is more competitive than the current division, and to ensure that matches are fair across the board...also to stop seeing the dominant teams achieve their high standing by playing weak schedules....
it doesn't have anything to do with people "sick of being forced to cherrypick"....because frankly, nobody forces anyone to cherrypick...if you cherrypick it's your own fault....assume some responsibility.....
| Quizard wrote: | So this is a place for people who know this game. Who know how to cage and brake cages, who know how to foul and avoind beeing fouled and for people who know how to stall and how to make stalling a costly strategy.
All of that is new to the majority of people here who choose to simply ignore parts of the game. |
yes, it has never been a secret that blackbox was created for the upper echelon of coaching, and that the average run of the mill coach that may not like fouling, may not like stalling, may want to pick easy matches, should probably not play in this league...
your point?
| Quizard wrote: | | I fully understand the importance of having the black box genenerating "fair" matchups. However, i am convinced that if it were allowed to freeboot, that would provide coaches with an additional means to further improve that balance. |
um...actually you must not understand the importance at all if you're actually considering taking an already fair match and skewing the favor in one direction or another by frebooting and hiring....
let me make this perfectly clear, so you can understand....
if you take two teams that are off by 2 or 3 TS, and then you hire the count...
THE MATCH IS NO LONGER FAIR...
how hard is that to understand?....
there is no "improving the balance" after the fact, when your team is 20TS higher than the other....
fact of the matter, you want to infect blackbox with some of the same flaws that ranked has....
why even bother playing blackbox, in this case? why not just stay in ranked?
| Quizard wrote: | | I cannot see people wasting money on stars to turn a match that is slightly in their favour into a farce very often. Buying another reroll after the game is too tempting imho. I think it would be much more commonplace to use freebooting (especially wizzards and regular freebooters, but also secret weapons) as a specific means to even the odds in matchups that are tough already for the freebooting side. |
you really don't pay attention to ranked very much at all?...then again i'm not surprised...
in one day, i lose track of the amount of unfair matchups....
look at some of the most notorious cherrypickers on the site, and look at their tactics...*gasp* sneak hiring, oh noes!!!!
seriously, you should really step outside of your ego, and look at the reality of the site....
| Quizard wrote: | | Well i think in the Blackbox Division even the most powerful teams can get maimed because the chance to run into an equally loaded powerhouse is always given. So in my oppinion there will be a lot of rebuilding going on without the luxury to choose opponents that make it particularly easy to rebuild. |
um....and that's a problem, because?....
oh noes, your superpowerful egotastic 5million TR team can't dominate the list forever and ever...
oh noes, you have to actually play some competition every now and then!!!
oh noes, whatever shall we do???....
please....in one logical, rational explanation...please give us all a reason why it is a bad thing that teams have to rebuild from time to time?
oh, and before you go off on your "part" again....the blackbox ensures that teams looking to rebuild are matched up with weaker teams to promote a fair matchup, even for teams that are struggling....
| Quizard wrote: | | So an incentive to "waste" money will spice things up imho. So someone who is carrining around a huge treasure chest will be have to think about opening it every once in a while when morg knocks on his door. |
ummm...how exactly does "wasting" money spice things up?....oh that's right it doesn't....
fact of the matter, one of the major reasons why teams have such huge treasuries, is because they cherrypick their way up the ladder, and coddle their teams...
this division is 100% against that type of mentality, and forces coaches to play an across the board schedule...
if a team has a huge treasury, then they've been very lucky, and it will not be the norm by any means...
| Quizard wrote: | | Also, TS is not the ultimate tool to judge balance. One Piling On Claw RSC Multi Block Rat Ogre can kill 4 Players in 2 Turns (exageration!) and i dont want to recalculate TS at that point... Its blood bowl after all and its totaly out of control most of the time. |
oh wow....
you're right....TS is *NOT* the ultimate tool to judge balance...
....maybe that's why the blackbox does not use TS exclusively to determine a matchup.....
see, you should real do your research before throwing out these ridiculous ideas of yours....
| Quizard wrote: | | So i stick with my original point: hirelings should be used conciously, and not "into the blue" because you may end up hireing lord borak in a game vs. some halflings that you would have killed without him anyway and then lack him against the next best orc. I think the more tactical decisions availiable the better. |
or maybe....
...just maybe....
this division can fare quite well, and matches will be just as exciting without the need for hiring, and forcing unfair matchups....
just so we're clear on this very simple point....
THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN....schedules are locked for a reason...to ensure coaches do not intentionally throw a game out of balance that was already fair to begin with
was that clear enough?
--j |
_________________
| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 10, 2008 - 17:49 |
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| Quizard wrote: | | Well i think in the Blackbox Division even the most powerful teams can get maimed because the chance to run into an equally loaded powerhouse is always given. So in my oppinion there will be a lot of rebuilding going on without the luxury to choose opponents that make it particularly easy to rebuild. |
Probably the best level to abuse star hiring is around about TR120-140. The rebuilding going on will help ensure rich pickings for a star hiring fiend and new teams that are just starting to develope will provide a constant source of victims  Its how successful halfling teams opperate in [R]. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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