JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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 Posted:
Jan 13, 2009 - 11:23 |
 
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| Snappy_Dresser wrote: | | Frankly, those Ranked Coaches that want real competition already play in Black Box anyway. |
Not really. |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2009 - 15:50 |
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I don't think pitting [B] vs [R] team would work well. The two environments are quite different. |
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MrGrieves
Joined: Oct 22, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2009 - 23:34 |
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[B] teams would crash, stomp, destroy.... and win [R] teams. [R] coaches are just too scared to face [B]  They feel very comfortable in their happy and peacefull friendly division . It would reveal how those high CR have been reached. (No intend to offend anyone, just wanted to arise some competition spirit and sure there are very good coaches who don´t play [B], its a pity we will never really know   ) |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 13, 2009 - 23:45 |
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Easy to see how this will play out...
- Ranked teams will be cherrypicked to bloated and unnateral perfection
- Blackbox teams will be great but not -that- great
- Both sides wave their e-peens
- Ranked teams will have at least one competant coach who wins the tournament
- Ranked side says "wooo, we won we won"
- Blackbox side points out that it was never fair and go crys for a bit
I dont see this being beneficial, its neither fair nor terribly interesting. |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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nThatch
Joined: Jan 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 13, 2009 - 23:46 |
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In Balle2000`s defence (eventhough there is no need), winning games don`t entirely lie on how buildt the team is.
Added: There is a whole other perspective in the new Blackbox league, and therein lies potential in new knowledge and instincts. |
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johan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 14, 2009 - 00:19 |
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Pointless. This would be like pitching teams that are all doped up on steroids vs. clean teams. |
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”It's very sad
To see the ancient and distinguished game that used to be
A model of decorum and tranquillity
Become like any other sport, a battleground...”
—Benny Andersson & Björn Ulvaeus, Chess |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 00:24 |
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| p4m wrote: | | Paragon wrote: | | Balle2000 wrote: | | Paragon wrote: | | [B] teams will never be on the same level as the top 16 [R] teams. |
Really? Why don't we find out!
EXACTLY what you are saying is one of the reasons why I think this might be an exciting concept. |
So you think a team like this (the current highest TS [R] team) could have developed in [B]? |
althought it migth be extremyl difficult, even in [R] its not likely to have a team like this, this is '08-BDay-team. you cant compare things uncompareble |
truth....that woodie team played 19 games on the birthday event last year....
not to mention they're elfballers...
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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Hogshine
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 00:34 |
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| SillySod wrote: | Easy to see how this will play out...
- Ranked teams will be cherrypicked to bloated and unnateral perfection
- Blackbox teams will be great but not -that- great
- Both sides wave their e-peens
- Ranked teams will have at least one competant coach who wins the tournament
- Ranked side says "wooo, we won we won"
- Blackbox side points out that it was never fair and go crys for a bit
I dont see this being beneficial, its neither fair nor terribly interesting. |
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asharak
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 01:03 |
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The olny thing that could possibly make it interesting is that in [B] there can be very killer teams.... who can still get games. Harder to get games as an ultra-killy team in [R] so possibly a few interesting matchups in that sense. However, I think overall it's not a particularly interesting idea, can't say I'd watch it like I do the [R] tournaments. |
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Give a man a fire and he will be warm for the rest of the day.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life. |
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paulhicks
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 01:18 |
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Its nice to see people thinking of some new ideas but taking the top 8 from each division would be unmatched and i very much doubt you'll see any kind of crossover between [R] and [B] in the near future.
[Slightly off topic rant]
One thing that i find amusing is all teh people constantly making out that ranked is simply full of cherrypickers too afraid to play in the box and acting like [B] is the only worthwhile thing on FUMBBL now (this is a general feeling created by lots of different comments accross the [B] forum atm) when its simply not true.
Yeah there are some major pickers in {r} but they represent a small minority of the coahes that play there. There are plenty of people in [B] who have already figured out how to abuse the system too.
Cherrypicking in [R] is simply a way of maximising your chances whilst minimising the risks depending on what you want to achieve (only playing noobs or weak coaches if you just want to win easy.... constantly playing skaven with your bashers if your aim is to hurt stuff etc) whereas in [B] peopel have found ways to exploit the TS system to make sure that the opponent that is forced to play them starts of at a big disadvantage. Min/ Maxing again... little difference.
In the same way that it is only the minority who regulary pick in open im quite sure that it is a minority who pull these stunts in [B].... in just sticks in my throat when i see all this "ranked is nothing but pickers" elitist crap.
[/Slightly off topic rant] |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 01:34 |
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yup, i agree with paul
still, its funny to see the zealots argue
(pyth, in dial-up exile) |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 14, 2009 - 01:56 |
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Paul, I think that that sort of behaviour is especially prominent at very high TR/TS levels. Its natural that when people talk about "the best vs the best" people look at what is (statistically) the best that [R] has produced... and see that its basicly all cherrypickers and elfballers.
Edit:
Paul, there is a tangible difference between powergaming and cherrypicking although often they have the same look and smell. Powergaming is where you intentionally stack the odds in your favour, usually before the game has even begun and often its extremely effective. Cherrypicking is where you intentionally seek out weak opponents (like small children or halflings teams) so that you can boost your wins.
The difference (for me) is that powergaming opperates within the rules and constraints of the game, you can play against anybody, your objective is to develope a better strategy/teambuild than your opponent can (lets call it an intellectual challenge). Cherrypicking works outside the rules of the game, its not a challenge to play the game better, its a challenge to try and find someone that plays the game worse. If there was no rule about playing "reasonably balanced games" then you could argue that cherrypicking was built into the rules of [R]anked, fair game is fair game... it would be a sucky set of rules but there you go. TS abuse in Blackbox (and zerging in starcraft) comes under the same context, its within the rules so its fair game... dosent say much for the balance of the game but there you go. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced."
Last edited by SillySod on %b %14, %2009 - %02:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Jan 14, 2009 - 02:06 |
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| paulhicks wrote: | | Cherrypicking in [R] is simply a way of maximising your chances whilst minimising the risks depending on what you want to achieve (only playing noobs or weak coaches if you just want to win easy.... constantly playing skaven with your bashers if your aim is to hurt stuff etc) whereas in [B] peopel have found ways to exploit the TS system to make sure that the opponent that is forced to play them starts of at a big disadvantage. Min/ Maxing again... little difference. |
i agree, that there are ways to maximize your chances in B by putting
your oppo at a disadvantage because of flaws in the way TS is calculated.
however, imho the playing-strength in B-matchups are much smaller than they
are in R on average.
also, you have to take into account, that B is still in testing mode and
various aspects of the primary base of match-ups "TS" are being discussed
in many threads atm with most coaches participating are putting quite a bit
of effort into coming up with ways on how to improve the current TS-formula
(which has never had that much relevance, before, really) such that match-ups
would become (even more) fair.
of course, there are "exploits" of the current TS-formula and i think it's
natural that these are used by coaches discovering / understanding them and i
think it's important that they get exploited, because that's really how a TS-overhaul
may actually happen at some point and (although i'm using some myself)
i truly hope it will happen.
also in the whole cherrypicking-discussion about comparing B and R, i think
people focus too much on comparing the match-ups that are actually played
while a lot has to do with certain match-ups being completely avoided by the
majority of coaches in R
now, i've never played you, but you're kind of a legend when it comes to
fouling - from what i've read and overheared in chat - i guess that a lot of
people are willing to play you, who would otherwise not even bother answering
anyone in chat with only half of your fouling-record 
i.e. i've been playing Ogres and Dwarf in R without even a single DP and got
turned down most of the time (at least after TS>140, probably) when asking for
a game where i was even willing to play up a few points in TS - that's just
plain boring+lame and i have thus quit playing R altogether 
...i don't mean to rant about R and i'm happy for those who like playing
there (and i understand a lot of coaches have teams, they got attached to),
but really the more i get to know B the less i like R |
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