slackman
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 21, 2003 - 01:22 |
 
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ok, well, it looks like everyone seems to be jumping on the "punk elf" bandwagon. they're either too powerful, or they're too similar to HEs and thus are not needed. but it looks like they're going to be around for a while, so maybe we need to discuss what to do w/ them...
the cheap line elves seem to be their best feature, allowing a large variety of ways you can start the team. from basic:
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12 line 720k
4 rrs 200k
8 ff 80k
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to horribly planned frontloading:
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2 blitzers 220k
2 catchers 200k
2 throwers 140k
5 line 300k
1 rr 50k
9 ff 90k
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and too many to list in between. but from the roughly 10 games ive played w/ them, it seems like they're not really that good.
line elves:
they're 60k, so its not supposed to matter if they all die, right? wrong. you're making roughly 60k per match if you both have high ff. if one dies, and you take 2 SIs, you're in for a world of hurt. i played elves, wood elves, norse, and another elves team before i decided to say fark it, let the ogres kill em. surprisingly, i took as much lasting damage against the other elves as i did against the ogres. if you really want to fulfil the stated purpose of having CHEAP line elves, make them CHEAP!
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human lineman
6 3 3 8 none 50k
amazon linewoman
6 3 3 7 dodge 50k
line elf
6 3 4 7 none 60k?
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jervis' cost formula rates dodge at about 20k, as are the -av and +ag. this means, the elves are still OVERPRICED. give em dodge and add 10k (back to 70) or make them 50k, so they're actually cheap enough to use. trust me, they're going to die plenty, u dont need to worry about them being overpowered. and i'd be willing to see the cost of the catchers and blitzers go up 10k each to see this happen, since the complaint seems to be that they're too cheap as they stand...
slackman42 |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 21, 2003 - 02:02 |
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Compare them to a wood elf lineman. 20k off for just one point less movement seems excesive to say the least. |
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Covertfun
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 21, 2003 - 05:06 |
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Elves are not overpriced... even if you don't think AG4 is all that good.
It is only subtle, but it still affects a team in the long run - The elf linemen have access to General and Agility skills, whereas Zons and Humies only have access to General.
That's worth a little bit of value - eg dodge is a lot better with 4 Ag.
You can definitely shape a team more if you get AG skills with your linemen - why not get Diving Tackle to really pin down your oppostion? If you're not the base to base contact kind, get em dodge instead. Or move the game how you want it with sidestep on as many Linemen as possible.
Having access to AG skills as well as General has gotta be worth something.
What does anyone think along these lines? |
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Sinner
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 21, 2003 - 07:21 |
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well... don´t forget: they are elves.
I started my 2nd match with them having only 7 guys to field... in the end I had 4. But I won 3-2 cause these pansy-eared elves always manage to score. In the beginning leap and sidestep are incredibly strong. Give the blitzers dodge and they are awful imo.
Well the only minus is the weak armor of the liners, throwers and catchers, combined with the fact that they are not allowed to take big guys.
To sum it up: they are definetly weaker than any of the existing elf teams. Woodies have the tree, darkies have armor 8 on the liners and high elfs... well they have armor 8 too AND are cheaper than the darkies.
IMO those elves are not really needed, but they are fun to play as any elven team. |
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Sinner
Darkie's Dreams - successfully cherrypicking any race, any coach, any rating, any number of DP since 20/09/2003 ... and still winning! |
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slackman
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 26, 2003 - 16:53 |
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ok, i digress. its probably not in the best interest to "beef up" the line elves by giving them dodge from the start. but my whole point is, these elves suck. they die like woodies, but arent as fast. the position players are as expensive as dark elves, and not quite as good, and it seems whenever i fail anything, someone dies. i roll as many 1s as i do all other numbers combined (excluding blocks) so i cant really even score w/ them either. i guess ill just have to accept the fact that i just cant play these guys.
also, the whole idea of having cheaper linemen seems to stem from the fact that the other 3 elf lineups are all but unusable in a tournament setting (fixed 1m roster) due to the high price. so maybe it doesnt matter so much in that context that half your players miss each game...
slackman42 |
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Adar
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 27, 2003 - 01:08 |
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Na the new elfs aren't that bad. Most elf teams start with 11 line elfs, this means you save 110 000gp on playing the new elf team. Upgrading three lines to two blitzer and a thrower means you get 3 extra positional players compared to any other elf team.
Their major weakness is that they got a rather low top effectivety roof. They got AV7 so expect to replace linemen as if you were a rat team and the rest of the team also lack muscles. I think they are a pretty good team that got a good chance of suffering abit in the higher end of the TR scale. |
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slackman
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 27, 2003 - 05:55 |
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erm, no, actually, ive been suffering from day one against another "elves" team. then a crippled wood elf team. then another "elves" team... my tr has just barely crossed the 125 threshold and i've had 8 games w/ them.
and how many elf players start w/ 11 line 3 rrs and 8 ff? not many... its usually something like:
dark:
2 blitzers
9 line
2 rrs
9 ff
high:
1 thrower
2 blitzers
8 line
2 rrs
8 ff
wood:
1 wardancer
10 line
2 rrs
9 ff
so yes, i can start w/ a couple more position players... but since everyone's dead, why does it matter? i was considering scrapping them and starting a third time, but whats the point? i'd rather lose w/ my HEs instead. i might lost the game, but i'll still have more than half my team intact at the games end.
again, the whole idea was to create an elf team cheap enough to use in a tournament. and for that, they may have succeeded. since we cant just ignore all our SIs and deaths on here, its impossible to have play testing in that aspect.
slackman42 |
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Mr-Klipp
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 27, 2003 - 06:39 |
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All smart elf players start with 11 lineelves 3 rr and 8 ff. It is by and far the best lineup for elves as far as team growth goes. |
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The Finishing Touch |
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Zhluhur
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 27, 2003 - 08:52 |
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I started my "Elves" Team with 10 Lineman, one Thrower, 4 Re-Rolls, 8 FF and an apoth.
After 2 games, I bougth a blitzer and after my next game, my first catcher will appear. No player died or even got injured. So I like these elves 
Playing AG4 players with 4 re-rolls out of the box is incredible! Everything succeds! |
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slackman
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 28, 2003 - 02:08 |
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see, heres my quandry. i like the idea of starting w/ 11 line and 4 rrs. but that never works for me. u cant use more than 1 rr on a single roll, and only one rr per team turn. this means when i roll double 1s, someone on my team is likely going to die. and i cant start w/ a "normal" roster because everyone dies then too. i just cant play these guys. or any of the other teams, really.
its just too frustrating anymore. i was beginning to question my abilities as a coach until yesterday, when i managed to tie my league game against evo. i finally had a match where neither of us were shafted on the rolls. turn 7 second half when my catcher out in the clear failed a gfi w/ a rr, died, and the apoth failed. but other than that, the rolls that should have worked mostly did, and the rolls that shouldnt have worked mostly didnt. but thats one game out of 15 where it actually came down to coaching skills. i guess i just dont see the point anymore.
slackman42 |
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Zy-Nox
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 28, 2003 - 04:13 |
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yer i started these bitches up.
thrower 2 blitzers 8 linos
3 rr rest ff
but had poo luck
lost players to aging, death etc
a lot of players
but still i like them |
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Frankenstein
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jun 28, 2003 - 04:30 |
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Started with 2 Blitzers, 9 Lineelves, 3RRs and FF 9.
I think this extra RR makes these 60k lineelves worthwhile. If the Blitzers survive their first game, this team really has got some potential.
Played 4 games so far and I must admit that I really like them. An innovative team that offers an alternative approach towards Elves and seems perfectly balanced to me. I'd really like all future rosters to be designed as good as this one.  |
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Zhluhur
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 01, 2003 - 11:27 |
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I have played 5 games so far and my team strengh is only 1 point under my team rating. I have no players with injuries or mng, no player died and the team won 3 of 5 matches. The last 2 matches have been unlucky for me and I also would have lost with AG7 elves.
After 5 matches, I have still on blitzer and one catcher, because I decided to train another thrower because my first gained STR4 and is now trained for blocking things.
I like the team, and I'll see what they can do in the future. |
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*-* Let the games begin! *-* |
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Indûr
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 01, 2003 - 18:20 |
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Started with 1 Blitzer, 1 Catcher, 1 Thrower, 8 Lineelves, 3 RR's and 9 FF.
Not in any way an "optimal" setup, but it gave me a chance to try out all their different players at once.
Sadly they got their Blitzer and two Linelves killed, and three more lineelves seriously injured (-MA, -Str and a niggle respectively).
Despite this they actually won the match.
Any team which can pull out a win with such losses are a good team in my book, so I still like them. Ain't about to retire them yet either... |
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mcv
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 09, 2003 - 00:30 |
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Slackman, your problem is not that the Elves are bad, but that your luck is bad. If you keep rolling 1s, you'll lose with any team. At least with Elves you can have more players than the other Elven teams.
I don't have any experience with them yet, but they seem to fix the problems my High Elves were having, so I intend to give them a try.
Shame the Catchers start with Leap instead of Dodge. Maybe they'd be too good with Dodge, but if they're too weak, this would be a good improvement. |
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