CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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 Posted:
Feb 25, 2010 - 15:38 |
 
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The hobgob just has AG3. So yes, he carries the ball better, but that`s only where he wins. Breaking away from an opponent and blitz someone, the BT saurus wins - and he is AV9 compared to AV7. |
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maysrill
Joined: Dec 29, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 25, 2010 - 15:40 |
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| freak_in_a_frock wrote: | | The dauntless idea sounds spot on, would you also take that into account for high str dauntless players?, i.e a dauntless ghoul that get's to strength 5 (can't remember whose it was) |
Without getting myself into a lot of math early in the morning, my thought on dauntless TS would be based on a statistical likelihood of it behaving like a given ST value. The ST that gets used to calculate TS would be an average of the offensive and defensive STs.
Example: ST2, Dauntless gutter runner
On Defense:
-ST2 (100%)
On Offense:
-ST2 (100% success)
-ST3 (91% success)
-ST4 (83%)
-ST5 (72%)
-ST6 (55%)
Now, some assumption on the relative odds of blocking versus each ST (pulled out of thin air on my part, adjust as you see fit)
Opponents' ST:
ST2 or less - 5%
ST3 - 65%
ST4 - 20%
ST5 - 10%
ST6 - ignoring because it's so small a %
Adding up the %'s and summing:
ST2 = 2*1.00*.05 = .05
ST3 = 3*.92*.65 = 1.79
ST4 = 4*.83*.20 = .66
ST5 = 5*.55*.10 = .28
Sum = 2.78
Average of Offensive and Defensive ST = (2 + 2.78 )/2 = 2.39
Adjust these numbers as you like and the final result to match, but to me, a Dauntless ST2 guy should be treated as if it had ~2.39 ST, for TS purposes. |
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screech
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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Mar 02, 2010 - 23:18 |
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| freak_in_a_frock wrote: | As a mainly necro coach the biggest issue i have with the TS system is taking +ag +ma on a zombie will make that zombie worth more than a wight, that just doesn't make sense. The normal arguement for this is that another ag3 player on a necro team is worth a lot, however this only holds true if you have the full compliment of positions at the time, if not then the zombie is not as good as buying a new player. Give that play block and it becomes more the twice as good as a -ma wight.
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I've played mainly necros in blackbox, and I've noticed that the ts for them is severly borked. It is way too high for what they can perform.
As well as what is stated above, I think the positional are overpriced.
For example, A necro team with half the postionals (with maybe a skill or 2 max), only 1 or 2 dp zombies, around 100,000 in the bank will still be about 15-20 ts above the tr.
Thus necros are pretty regularly playing up, and hoping for equalizng handicaps (and usually getting palmed coins). And that is when they can get games, but due to the scheduler favoring non-handicap games (this is true right?) they are usually screwed out of the selection.
Now I'm not really sure how to fix this. I supposed the only thing I could suggest is a reduction in TS for non-regnerating players on teams with no access to an apoth. |
_________________
Everybody believes in something, and everybody, by virtue of the fact that they believe in something, use that something to support their own existence.
Frank Zappa |
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freak_in_a_frock
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 02, 2010 - 23:34 |
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A negative for non-regenerating player without access to an apoth is something i have often thought about. Wolves and ghouls aside it would also make nurgle beastmen worth less than their chaos counterparts.
The main problem that i can't see a way around is for rookie teams that haven't bought an apoth yet. An apoth is already factored into TS on teams that do buy one.
The only way that i can see to fairly represent the real bonus that an apoth gives is to actually have the apoth gain more TS as the average player value of a team increases. This would mean that for high TS teams with few players the apoth would be worth more than for a low TS team with 16 players. This in turn would mean that as necros and rotters get into the higher levels of team development they wouldn't gain this handicap of having an apoth, and therefore would not be punished for their high strength non-regen positionals.
very rough example, apoth = average player TS/10 * 5/6 (for the chance the apoth will fail) This is only an example that i haven't checked to see if it is fair, but you get the idea.
(edit btw screech i feel your pain with the wolves. You have gone through 12 wolves in 88 games, i have gone through 14 in 89, they average less than 7 games a time for us, that is around 35k per game just to keep two wolves on the pitch) |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Mar 02, 2010 - 23:37 |
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The apo idea is a very good one. On top, regenerate is horribly overpriced, being counted not only as a regular skill, but adding one further point to the TS. I would suggest removing the cumulative and the bonus TS from the regeneration and deal with it by adjusting either the star discount threshold or the star scaling factor. |
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Cryo
Joined: Dec 12, 2009
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Mar 02, 2010 - 23:41 |
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I am sure it has already been said but I am in favor of LRB5 TV instead of current TS calculation
The skills you choose should not be a handicap if you choose them "well" / efficiently
I don't know if TV is better than TS at the TR values reached on this site compared to tabletop teams but it is worth a try |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Mar 02, 2010 - 23:48 |
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Cryo - there are different abuses in TV and there is alot team management going on to have the best team for the lowest TV.
TS has a different purpose: To measure the actual winning chance of a team, not it`s developmental stage. The system is more complex and I think more accurate for it`s purpose. After all, 11 blodge elves will mop the floor with 11 diving catch kick elves - and yet they have the same TV.
That is because they have the same developmental stage, but the winning chances are vastly different. |
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Cryo
Joined: Dec 12, 2009
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Mar 03, 2010 - 00:03 |
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I understand your point CircularLogic but I don't see why the coach with 11 diving catch elves should get easier games than the one with 11 blodge elves just based on his "lack of efficiency" in picking skills (I put quotes cause I don' like speaking like this about a game).
For me Bloodbowl is a competitive game and development of the team is as much important as the game part. IMO, Taking 11 diving catch to get easier game is a bigger abuse than optimizing your TV.
Another example : 11 elves with blodge will be higher TS than 11 elves with block+tackle but winning chances are equal.
There will always be some case where TV is better than TS or TS better than TV and I honestly don't know which one is the solution.
And YES ... I have trouble with my zons at 200TR due to high TS  |
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Cloggy
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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Mar 03, 2010 - 00:16 |
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Circ: what are your thought on the TS value of dirty players?
We were just discussing this in chat, but none of us know any math 
Our train of thought:
First dp is a huge asset and heavily increases your chances of winning by giving you the option to either foul the opposing star or simply by creating a numerical advantage after recieving a kickoff.
Second dp is still pretty good considering the chance that the first one gets sent off or otherwise removed from the pitch.
Now, somewhere along the line the TS cost goes wrong imho. I can't say for sure where, but the 6th dp on a silly khemri team does not in any way increase the chance of winning the game and thus the skill should add very little in TS.
Can't quite put it in numbers, but the current system doesn't seem to make all that much sense. |
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Proud owner of three completed Ranked grids, sadly lacking in having a life. |
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fenric
Joined: Jan 02, 2008
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Mar 03, 2010 - 00:43 |
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Why do different skills need to have different ts values anyways? Why can't a normal skill roll have a set value, a doubles roll have another value, and stat increases their own values as well? I don't see the need to reward coaches for poor skill choices by making their match-ups easier. |
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Cloggy
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 03, 2010 - 00:45 |
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| fenric wrote: | | Why do different skills need to have different ts values anyways? |
Because TS is supposed to measure the winning ability of a team, and different skills have different effects on that. |
_________________
Proud owner of three completed Ranked grids, sadly lacking in having a life. |
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Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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Mar 03, 2010 - 00:59 |
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I thought team development was a major reason why bloodbowl is such a well-liked game?
If the TS worked perfectly (impossible of course but theoretically) the way it's aiming to work all skill choices would be completly irrelevant for improving your chance of winning matches. Block and diving catch would always be equally good as skills. Does anyone think this is a good thing that Fumbbl should be aiming for? |
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Do you play ranked and wonder where all the good coaches are? Are you also from Sweden? Then join the Swedish league! |
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screech
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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| Posted:
Mar 03, 2010 - 01:22 |
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| freak_in_a_frock wrote: | A negative for non-regenerating player without access to an apoth is something i have often thought about. Wolves and ghouls aside it would also make nurgle beastmen worth less than their chaos counterparts.
The main problem that i can't see a way around is for rookie teams that haven't bought an apoth yet. An apoth is already factored into TS on teams that do buy one.
The only way that i can see to fairly represent the real bonus that an apoth gives is to actually have the apoth gain more TS as the average player value of a team increases. This would mean that for high TS teams with few players the apoth would be worth more than for a low TS team with 16 players. This in turn would mean that as necros and rotters get into the higher levels of team development they wouldn't gain this handicap of having an apoth, and therefore would not be punished for their high strength non-regen positionals.
very rough example, apoth = average player TS/10 * 5/6 (for the chance the apoth will fail) This is only an example that i haven't checked to see if it is fair, but you get the idea.
(edit btw screech i feel your pain with the wolves. You have gone through 12 wolves in 88 games, i have gone through 14 in 89, they average less than 7 games a time for us, that is around 35k per game just to keep two wolves on the pitch) |
I thought about how it would change starter teams ts, which is why I said I dont know how to really fix it. I was hoping there might of been a way to modify ts calcualtions by position, which I assumed there's not.
Although I guess the next question to pose, would be whether it really adversly effect an accurate assement of TS for a rookie team with no apoth/no regeneration?
I dont know for sure, but I'm guessing it would.
As to my wolves, whatever, dont mind I lose them rapidly and repeatedly, you cant be too attached to them, as i'm sure you know. My team development graph looks like a roller coaster, which i'm also fine with because i think necros compete better in the 160-170 tr range. I'm slighty annoyed at how easily my zombie and wight's av8 breaks, but whatever.
My real gripe is that I'm regularly playing up, and I'm constantly getting shafted by the scheduler because it prefers to match teams with no handicaps |
_________________
Everybody believes in something, and everybody, by virtue of the fact that they believe in something, use that something to support their own existence.
Frank Zappa |
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