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clarkin



Joined: Oct 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 16, 2011 - 11:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Typical cheating dorfs.. I mean look at that deathroller. Made your edit.
Hitonagashi



Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 16, 2011 - 11:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Clarkin, did you consider my chaos suggestion?

New players will blitz with the minotaur a lot, so I thought it was important to give it a skill, and claw lets them really have some fun with it, without overpowering it.

Great work on all that though Smile.
clarkin



Joined: Oct 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 16, 2011 - 15:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Hey Hito, I did. I've decided to leave it as is for now, hopefully so people can see that claw without MB (on the beastman) is poor. I've also limited the claw/mb/po combos. There's one claw+MB (a nurgle pestigor) and one mb + po (norse blitzer) in all the rosters.

Nothing to stop the teams being tweaked more later on though.
King_Ghidra



Joined: Sep 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 16, 2011 - 16:55 Reply with quote Back to top

clarkin wrote:
so people can see that claw without MB (on the beastman) is poor


why?

it's a bit 'meta' isn't it? surely the idea is to give a variety of skills that show different development paths, enable newbs to try different skills and teach them about game mechanics.

I don't see any great consistency across the rosters in terms of having stuff that is 'poor'. many of the rosters look extremely solid. Are we singling out Claw?

[other random thoughts]
two of the teams have catchers with Diving Catch. Surely this must be one of the least valued and least taken skills in CRP. Is it really helpful to have it on these rosters? on the amazon roster why not swap a pointless skill on a catcher for something half-useful on a linewoman, this would share the skills to someone other than the positionals at least.

btw i see DP isn't on any team other than a couple of skeletons. it may have been nerfed but most rosters still carry dp's, and i think there are some missed opportunities here, e.g. why not swap the chaos dwarf blocker with Grab for DP on a hobgob. Fouling is as much a part of the game as any other tactic.

the Two-heads pestigor on the nurgle team...hmmm...don't get it. how much use will this get? what will it teach a newb in the context of playing nurgle or playing bb? I completely agree that the teams should not be hyper-optimised cookie cutter moulds for success, but I think the best rosters should teach you something about playing that race, about skill synergies, or about interesting game or client mechanics. I don't see two heads on a pestigor fulfilling those criteria.

Pass on the dwarf runner is dubious too. Kick-off return i think is good. it's an interesting mechanic, it is advantageous for a slow team, and you will definitely see it in use while playing your newb match. pass sends the dubious message that you should think about passing the ball, and with all due respect to Agility Monsters, you shouldn't. maybe swap the Fend from the blitzer onto the runner instead of Pass, and give the blitzer something else

I notice on the Orc team a Blitzer has Fend as well. I'm not sure what the logic is there? Blitzers can obviously get some value from Fend, but this is more of a lino/los fodder skill and not very 'Orcy'. maybe just swap fend onto a lino?

[/end of random thoughts]
Niebling



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 16, 2011 - 17:02 Reply with quote Back to top

This is a very good idea Smile and its very close to what I have needed for a long time, the ability to test out team Concept

How hard would it be to open up for a template generator for the coaches themselves aswel.

Something like every coach was allowed to have one or two template teams he created himself and can then use in the Academy?

_________________
Someone is wrong on the Internet and it is my sworn duty to correct them.
clarkin



Joined: Oct 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 16, 2011 - 17:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Cheers for the feedback. Yes many of them are poor skillups, especially for first skills. I've tried to get a wide breadth of skills into the teams. Another approach would be to make the teams much more themed (eg chaos, orcs = bashy; elves = passing; and so on) and streamlined, which would also be good for teaching purposes, but that's not what I went for with this list.

Niebling: I believe non-progression is going to come to L eventually, which will be cool for tournaments like we see on tabletop.
Hitonagashi



Joined: Apr 09, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 16, 2011 - 17:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, I was actually going the other way...to show that claw with MB is a nice combination. We are showing blodge, we are showing guard, so it seems a bit strange to not show new players one of the most potent combinations they will encounter in games. Putting it on the mino limits the effectiveness, as it hasn't got block, and it has got WA. The mino itself isn't great at the best of times, but it is drastically more effective with claw...and it seems a shame not to demonstrate that.

It does seem a bit strange that we are giving new players a chaos team that can't kill. If we are playing in Academy, and they have taken Chaos, they probably want a team that can kill and do damage. While we are giving a balanced experience, that chaos team is going to get outbashed by 90% of the other teams (due to no block+mb, or blodge, and only one guard). That probably won't be what people are looking for when they play chaos.

King_G, the reason Diving Catch isn't taken on FUMBBL is because players don't pass. It's not actually that bad a skill if you want to play a passing game, and it's probably peer pressure as much as anything among weaker players. Catchers with diving catch are quite reliable at catching it, and new players can at least experience a passing game. Running games are hard, and passing games are a lot easier!

I agree on DP hob. It's quite nice and does show them the value of fouling.

2 heads pest I'm fine with. Run the ball with it, makes dodging out of trouble easier.

Pass on dwarf runner, I actually agree with. One in the backfield, one up front...it's not an optimal skill, but it gives a new player a chance of clearing their backfield if the kick goes deep.

Swop fend for stand firm? It's just as useful, and considerably more orcy. It's not like there's mb/po to worry about, or much frenzy.

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King_Ghidra



Joined: Sep 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 16, 2011 - 17:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Hito I like the stand firm Orc idea.

The doubt i have with the two headed pestigor runner is whether a newb would understand that that is the virtue of that skill, and whether they should find themselves in a position to actually use it, i.e. having to make a dodge roll. It is very situational for a 'bash' team.


Regarding passing generally, I would say one of the most common mistakes I see from very new players is an obsession with passing. Nothing leads to change of possession and losing quicker than ill-advised passing with ag3 teams. I would characterise it as one of the most natural things to try for people who like American football and one of the worst ways to play BB. They set up with someone downfield on their own in easy reach of defenders, sling it to them with a low chance of success and even if it comes off, have no idea how easy it is for the defence to get that ball free and make it safe so that they will never be near it again until they have conceded a TD. Even amongst Ag4 teams the virtues of creating loose cages and controlling space with TZ's are better learnt than the virtues of a bomb downfield.

It's impossible for these to be perfect of course. Obviously you want new players to see the difference in races, learn about game mechanics and the java client, but above all else really, to have fun. That's a lot of targets to hit. So let me just say that I think this is a really good idea and well done for the work that's been put in so far.
Cevap



Joined: Jun 24, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 16, 2011 - 21:08 Reply with quote Back to top

clarkin wrote:
The template:
A team name
4 rerolls
1 Apo
0 cheerleaders, ass coaches, fan factor
14 players (maxing out positionals, gobbos flings and ogres get 15 players)
0 treasury

LOL How come nobody noticed it yet is beyond me... Laughing
blader4411



Joined: Oct 18, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 16, 2011 - 21:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Cevap wrote:
clarkin wrote:
The template:
A team name
4 rerolls
1 Apo
0 cheerleaders, ass coaches, fan factor
14 players (maxing out positionals, gobbos flings and ogres get 15 players)
0 treasury

LOL How come nobody noticed it yet is beyond me... Laughing

Probably because everyone else has actually been contributing to the Academy teams? Razz

-Blader
Cevap



Joined: Jun 24, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 18, 2011 - 15:15 Reply with quote Back to top

blader4411 wrote:
Cevap wrote:
clarkin wrote:
The template:
A team name
4 rerolls
1 Apo
0 cheerleaders, ass coaches, fan factor
14 players (maxing out positionals, gobbos flings and ogres get 15 players)
0 treasury

LOL How come nobody noticed it yet is beyond me... Laughing

Probably because everyone else has actually been contributing to the Academy teams? Razz

-Blader

I'm a baaad boy... Embarassed
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