Mr_QB
Joined: Jul 16, 2004
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 Posted:
Feb 12, 2005 - 04:29 |
 
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| thmbscrws wrote: | | If you are really desperatly wanting another skaven team why not work on a moulder team with rat ogres and mutants and stuff like that. |
i Must say that i think it is a great idea not to have bigguys, and besides it is a really great fluff IMHO. keep up the good work |
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celas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2005 - 05:08 |
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I have been working on a Moulder team and a Pestilens team. Not sure if I am "desperate" for another skaven team any more than I am "desperate" for another Big Guy based team in stunty, but like goblins, there are many distinct clans for this race that could easily be represented. Plus I like this Clan more than Skyre (not necessarily the team, but the idea behind the clan). I used daggers for this team because I doubt we are going to see new secret weapons implemented in the client, so unfortunately you have to recycle old ones. I think it is the right angle use for the tea....after all the assassins are known for their deadly weeping blade....I didn't make it up, GW did 
The other two Skaven teams I was working on look like this so far, although I am not quite pleased with them yet:
<b>Beasts of Moulder</b>
Clan Moulder has gained their power from their special breeding projects and their acquisition of the Warpstone necessary to their experiments. From their Clan home of Hell Pit they carry on experiments in breeding. By applying Warpstone and selective breeding programs, they have developed an army of beasts that can rival any force that the other Clans may field. Clan Moulder only sells sterile beasts to other Clans, using their profits to fund their experiments. Now the clan leaders have bred beasts to take the pitch, to generate revenue and maintain pace with the other clans who are beginning to field Bloodbowl teams.
Please note the strong players on this team won't have G access. Wild Animals are not trained how to block and tackle...after all....they are wild.
<b> Rat Ogres </b>
Rat Ogres are the most successful of Clan Moulder creation. Immense creatures, they resemble Skaven in appearance and speed, but an Ogre in strength and size. They are however, fairly stupid monstrosities, bred for battle, and must always be controlled by Pack Masters. They are the most favored of Clan Moulder creations, and are much in demand by other Clans as shock troops and bodyguards. They are also the backbone of the Bloodbowl team.
0-2 MV 6 ST 5 AG 3 AV 8 Mighty Blow, Frenzy, Prehensile Tail, Big Guy, Wild Animal S, PH 130K
<b> Vermin Trolls </b>
Vermin Trolls are the least successful of Clan Moulder’s experiments. They are smaller, faster rat-like trolls, but are incredibly stupid and difficult to control. They are exclusively used by Clan Moulder, and none have been sold yet to other Clans. They have the frustrating habit of scooping up and eating their Handlers when ever they get hungry...Clan Moulder created Vermin Trolls in hopes of employing them in tunnel warfare, areas that the larger Rat Ogres sometimes have difficulty fighting in. The Vermin Troll resembles a small troll standing at around eight feet, partially covered with fur, and rat like facial features. They move in an awkward gait, moving sporadically on their rear two legs at times, and on all fours at other times.
0-2 MV 3 ST 4 AG 1 AV 9 Mighty Blow, Throw Teammate, Big Guy, Really Stupid S, PH 80K
<b> Blood Rats </b>
Blood Rats are Giant Rats bred by the Skaven that have a particularly acute sense of smell. Blood Rats are able to scent out the trail of their quarry and pursue it relentlessly with devastating speed. Their Night Vision and sense of hearing is also superior to most creatures and further enhances their remarkable sense of perception. Clan Moulder uses these Blood Rats to hunt down prey or to track down those who escape the clutches of the Skaven. They always stay on all fours, thus they never handle the ball.
0-4 MV 8 ST 2 AG 3 AV 6 Dodge, Stunty, No Hands A, PH 60K
<b> Pack Handlers </b>
Pack handlers are fearless skaven who take the pitch to guide the beasts of Moulder. Not particularly strong, they rely on the beasts for protection and are the primary ball handlers.
0-12 MV 6 ST 1 AG 3 AV 6 Dodge, Stunty A, PH 30K
Apoth: Yes
Rerolls: 60K
<b> Clan Pestilens </b>
Clan Pestilens are foul and verminous, spreading plague and pestilence through their foul rites and experiments. Responsible for many of the plagues that swept the Old World, they are responsible for more deaths than any other Clan. Filled with ritual, the members of this Clan adopt a bizarre cult version of the Cult of the Horned Rat, organizing themselves along religious lines. The leader of this Cult is the Plaguelord, who is, according to the Priesthood of Pestilence, the favored of the Horned Rat. The Plaguelord is the head of the Clan and the Cult of the Priesthood of Pestilence. He wields phenomenal power over the fanatic followers. His servants are the Plague Priests, who make up the ruling hierarchy of the Priesthood. Below them are the Plague Monks, the fervent soldier followers of the Priesthood, who are half-mad with religious fervor. A small faction, the Plaguelords, are kept separate from the Clan, and it is these Plaguelords who create and concoct the deadly plagues, diseases, and miasma that give Clan Pestilens so much power.
<b> Plague Warriors </b>
Plague warriors are the initiates of Clan Pestilens. They are horribly mutated and their presence is announced with a foul stench. The mutations make them hideous to lay eyes upon, but also hinder the ability to move with the traditional skaven speed.
0-16 MV 5 ST 2 AG 3 AV 6 Dodge, Stunty, Foul Appearance, Right Stuff A, PH 50K
<b> Plague Priests </b>
Plague Priests are the field generals of the team. Although they are as fragile as the next skaven, they possess incredible drive and strength when they whip themselves up into a frenzy. During this frenzy spin in a circle, waving their arms wildly about and this strength can be directed at opponents or used to hurl teammates down the field. Plague priests often spend their entire time on the pitch spinning, and as a result, can become confused, hence the bonehead trait.
0-4 MV 5 ST 2 AG 3 AV 6 Dodge, Frenzy, Foul Appearance Stunty, Throw Teammate, Bonehead A, PH 70K
<b> Plague Ball </b>
Some plague priests have adopted the habit of spinning while carrying a Censur Ball. The Censur is a hollowed out leaden ball which is commonly used in the Old World as a device in which one can burn incense. Plague priests fill this ball with rotting flesh and laden it with spikes, whipping it around in a devastating fashion. The weight of ball is such that it makes the plague priest off-balanced and hard to control.
0-2 MV 4 ST 6 AG 3 AV 6 Ball and Chain, Foul Appearance A, PH 70K
Apoth: Yes
Reroll: 60K |
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thmbscrws
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2005 - 05:18 |
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*EDIT: Celas posted while i was typing this is all in referance to the original team he posted*
There are a good number of big boy free stunty teams; Gnomes, Squigs, Slaves, Cheaters, Skinks, and Strigoyan. Thats six out of 13 teams. Even if you remove strigoyan because they sorta have one big boy that makes six teams without big boys, six teams with 2 or more big boys and one team with one sorta big boy. Having no big guys isn't exactly a rare and radical new concept. Now take into to account the number of teams with secret weapons vs the number of teams without secret weapons. With weapons; Chaos Halflings, Snotlings, Gnomes, Goblin Cheaters, Skinks, Slaves, and Squigs. Thats seven teams with weapons and five without. Of the five weapon free teams one is the goblin team which really isn't a weapon free team because of all the cheap weapon having star players. So really 8 out of 13 teams use secret weapons.
The defining characteristics of this team are that it has poison daggers, shadowing, and no big guys. No big guys is covered by half the team already. Poison dagger is present on a team already and a very similar team at that. Shadowing is already a very important part of the pygmy team. All in all the team just doesn't really do anything that isn't already done on other teams and team needs to have a noval play style for it to be considered. On top of that it is even of a race that is already represented in stunty. I don't mean to sound like an ass but there really has to be something new for the team to work. |
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"If God really existed it would be necessary to abolish him." - Mikhail Bakunin |
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Wukong
Joined: Nov 21, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2005 - 05:21 |
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I like this team. It's good, well designed, fluffy and fun.
I'd also like a Clan Moulder team like thmbscrws sugested.
Something like (and this is a ROUGH outcast):
0-1 Beastmaster 7 3 3 7 Leader 60K -G, Ph
0-2 Rat Ogres (standard)
0-12 Mutants 5 2 3 6 Stunty, Foul Appearance, Right Stuff 40K- A, Ph
0-2 Giant Rats 8 1 3 6 Stunty, Frenzy, Dauntless, Strip ball, No hands, Wild Animal 80K -A
RR - 70K
Apo - Yes
Wiz - Yes |
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Wukong
Joined: Nov 21, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2005 - 05:23 |
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Oh!
Looks like celas was busy while I was typing. |
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celas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2005 - 06:28 |
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Well, some people want novel ideas that have not ever been used in stunty before, some people want fluff and to fit into the Warhammer world, some people want to make cartoons from the 80's and make them into a team, some want a team that will destroy all others. You (thmbscrws) are not being an ass with your posts, but apparently we have a difference of opinion. I am fine with that. We can all manipulate the stats to make our view look correct and some will agree, others will disagree. That's just life.
My opinion is that this team would represent a unique style of team; perhaps if they were not skaven and I called them a different race then that would be more apparent, but then I would lose the fluff. I do not consider this team similar to all teams with secret weapons. Do we really think that having four secret daggers is comparable to a team with a few pogo sticks, or one with two blunderbuss and a ST 3deathroller, or one with two pump wagons, and the list goes on? Does having a secret weapon make the style of play that similar unless it is the same type (last time I checked there was only one poison dagger on one team roster)? Do all teams with Big Guys or without big guys have the same style of play? Is shadowing a "very important" part of the pygmy team considering they are only MV 4 or does this skill really only come into play when Pygmys play slow teams? My opinion is no. If pygmys lost shadowing, it would only affect them against slow teams and even then, not too much. I realize that all these questions have different sides to them. I don't think that combining them in the manner you described makes this team unappealing to most. Using the same logic, ANY new team proposal that includes OR leaves out Big Guys is already covered by half the teams and thus is repetitious. ANY new team proposal that has secret weapons OR does not have secret weapons is already covered by half the teams and is therefore repetitious. And heaven forbid you give a positional player a skill possessed by another team or else it too, is repetitious. I think dodge is overused in stunty and we should not allow new teams to have since all other teams use it. Hopefully I am making my point, but I realize that it still does not mean one of us is right and the other is wrong  We just see it differently. Perhaps the best we can do is to playtest this team against all the teams you think it is similar to and to see if we use the same style of play. I would like it if someone playing me tried to stab me with a Pogo Stick  |
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thmbscrws
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2005 - 07:34 |
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Shadowing is very important to pygmy teams. First of all your bound to roll a few mv increases here and there eventually and just one mv bump up to mv five on a basic guy makes there shadowing work pretty well against alomost all of the stunty teams. On top of that the jaguar warriors mv five shadowing is really good to start with and if they get a mv increase vs six shadowing is very nice indeed. Shadowing is also and excellant skill choice for there big guys who have a very nice mv of six and it combines extremely well with there prehensile tail and the tackle skill which almost all big boys pick up. Pygmies make excellant use of shadowing and to there is a reason there movment is so slow and that is to balance out the shadowing ability.
The shadowing isn't the main problem with the team as the eshin team probably wouldn't play much differant without it. The problem is the heavy use of poison dagger. Poison daggers are very very good against some stunty teams and not so good against others. On top of that the reliance on them makes the team almost totally incabable of dealing with big boys able to easly slaughter even the most developed stunties. If you need proof try playing a mid to hi tr strig team against an old snot team with two daggers. The strigs main advantage is that they have extremely good vamplings but as far as a dagger is concerned theres no differance between a legend vampling and a rookie goblin. The problem with an eshin team is pretty much the only fluff you have to work with is that they are assassins and use poison so it's hard to imagine one without daggers and with them it will just not work out very well. On top of that the eshin fluff doesn't give much justification for why they would be playing stunty.
The skryre team got around this by saying that they simply sent there slaves out to test there new inventions and it was a simply way to get controlled results. This kind of rationale works equally well with clan moulder because they also have myriad experiments in need of testing. A moulder team makes more sense than any of the other clans and gives you a lot more leeway in designing players. Eshin assassins simply aren't stunty sized creatures. It's a stretch even to say that skaven slaves are stunty sized but to say some of the deadliest killers in the warhammer world are stunty is to much of a stretch.
With a moulder team you could use things like giant rats that are about stunty size. It might be interesting to see how a team of primarily no hands stunty players would work with a few positionals as there only ballhandlers and moulder lends itself to this. I believe there have already been a few threads about moulder teams maybe you should check them for ideas.
As far as pestilens goes they have the least fluff of any of the clans and the fewest miniatures in warhammer so there isn't a lot to work with. It's probably best to just leave them alone for the moment along with the eshin team and try and work on an origianal and functional moulder team. Thats just my opinion of course but when your working on three teams at once it becomes kind of hard to do all of them justice. |
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"If God really existed it would be necessary to abolish him." - Mikhail Bakunin |
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thmbscrws
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2005 - 07:37 |
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I really am trying to be constructive it's just my nature to be kind of a prick. |
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"If God really existed it would be necessary to abolish him." - Mikhail Bakunin |
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celas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 12, 2005 - 15:38 |
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You are being constructive. Nothing about your posts is offensive. I like your Gnoblar team concept better than any mine at the moment. I just think that some of the criticisms of the Eshin team will be exposed or disconfirmed through playtesting. If they bomb there, then they are obviously not a great team to play.
With the increasing number of teams in stunty you will always be able to find match ups that are poor for one team or another. I might argue that Strigs are a poor match up for any team at any level. I mean can you really think of any team that they have an advantage over? The only good thing they have going fo them until 2-3 Vamplings have 2-3 skills is one AV 8 Big Guy with RSC. Not too effective against gnomes because you would rarely break armor.
Perhaps my choice of shadowing being very beneficial to Pygmys was the easiest of my comments to criticize. As I stated, it is my Opinion that it is not that useful and waiting for the 5/36 chance you roll extra MV is not that much of an advantage (I say 5/36 instead of 6/36 because if you roll double 5's on a MV 4 player you will not give him +MV unless you are on crack). Having TWO positional players who can use the skill more effectively does not detract from Pygmys.
I don't think it is that much of a stretch to think a deadly killer cannot be a stunty. They rely on subterfuge and poison weapons to kill the enemy, not brute strength or size. Good assassins infiltrate and pursue their prey without being hindered (hence skills such as stunty and shadowing). Larger skaven who are not as lithe or nimble can join the Skaven army as a regular if they want to see action.
I am sure I could provide many more arguments as I did in my previous post on this page. However, as you only addressed one of the many things I replied to in your earlier posts, it may be fruitless to continue when the most apparent difference we have is our Opinions. I hear all your points and I have tried to address them. If the answers are still not satisfactory to you I can respect that and hopefully you will believe the results of playtesting, which I intend on doing before pushing the Eshin concept any further. As I stated earlier, if the team does poorly in playtesting, then it will die there. |
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thmbscrws
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 14, 2005 - 16:25 |
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You got the better of me celas, not sure if we really need more rats in stunty or not but i figured i'd try to come up with some original ideas for it myself. So here are my totally insane takes on a moulder and an eshin team. Hope you find it amusing at the least.
Moulder
0-1 Rat Ogre 6 5 2 8 wild animal, big guy, prehensile tail, frenzy, Mighty Blow (G, S, Ph) 130k
0-4 Beast Master 7 2 3 7 none (G, Ph) 50k
0-16 Giant Rat 6 2 3 7 stunty, dodge, really stupid, frenzy, no hands (A, Ph) 40k
rr-50k
apo-yes
wiz-no
Rat Ogre:
It’s a rat ogre, you know him and love him.
Beast Master:
These are moulder clan rats whos job it is to control the animals there clan employs.
Giant Rats:
Dog sized rats with a nasty temperament. The really stupid represents the necessity of having a beast master to goad them into doing things.
Overall:
This is a really strange team not sure if it would work or not. Essentially the point is you only have a small number of players who can even handle the ball and if they die the whole team falls apart. While it might be tempting to give them block and tackle and use them to bash, odds are if you leave them exposed they will get torn apart really fast and if you start losing them you start losing control of your team. Fun idea and would play totally different from all other stunty teams. Probably needs work.
Eshin
0-1 Executioner 8 3 3 8 none (G,A,S, Ph) 100k
0-2 Adept 8 2 3 7 stunty (G, A, Ph) 70k
0-2 Black Skaven 7 2 3 6 stunty, dodge, poison dagger (A) 70k
0-16 Night Runner 6 2 3 6 stunty, dodge (A) 40k
rr-50k
apo-yes
wiz-no
Executioner:
A full fledged clan eshin master of death. This guy is the teams “big guy”, in keeping with the teams theme he is all about speed and precision rather than brute strength.
Adept:
Adept hope to one day grow up to be full fledged Executioners. They are fast and have an excellent skill selection but they aren’t very strong and die pretty easy.
Black Skaven:
Armed with Eshin’s signature weeping blades the black skaven are deadly killers with poison daggers.
Night Runner:
The clans basic rat isn’t much to talk about but they hope to one day prove themselves and become assassins too.
Overall:
The team is kinda like skinks but not as fast. They would be all about the ball as they couldn’t take a stand up fight for very long. This would make them play differently from 90% of the stunty teams out there but I’m not sure if they could last long or not. Your executioner would be a huge tartget and without any big boys to speak of you’d run out of fodder to throw in front of him fast. Once again it’s a fun idea but not sure if it would work or not and it might also need some work. |
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"If God really existed it would be necessary to abolish him." - Mikhail Bakunin |
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hunter
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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Feb 20, 2005 - 20:36 |
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At the request of celas, this team (Adepts of the Horned Rat- not the other stuff) has been declared ready for playtesting and included in the Stunty Compendium. It will be one of many Stunty Leeg conceptual teams featured in the upcoming league. See the linked thread for more information. Details of the league will be released in the 2nd week of March, with commencement shortly thereafter.
~hunter |
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