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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: May 28, 2016 - 21:01 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

This system strongly encourages players cycling if a team has a huge treasury.


Obviously, this couldn't be allowed.

It also wouldn't work at all with the current Box system. Also I appreciate your stance on random events.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 28, 2016 - 21:10 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
MattDakka wrote:

This system strongly encourages players cycling if a team has a huge treasury.


Obviously, this couldn't be allowed.

It also wouldn't work at all with the current Box system. Also I appreciate your stance on random events.

So imagine playing elves: you lose a catcher and you buy a new one with bad stats, you are forced to keep him.
Basically it's bad for teams with expensive players and with few gold in their Treasury.
I like randomness as long as it spices up the things a bit, but I don't like it when it creates very unbalanced situations.
This is why I hate some Kick Off events and Weather rolls.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: May 28, 2016 - 21:13 Reply with quote Back to top

If you were using TV as your handicapper. If you are using success, then your team would be less successful and you'd gain more in handicaps. If you are playing in an environment like low TV box or resurrection; then yes, there's no place for a system like this.

Basically, under your scenario you've bought 'Balotelli'. You need to make the most of it, until you have money again.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 28, 2016 - 21:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Handicaps, you mean inducements? Well, if you mean that, inducements don't balance things up, they just try to make an unbalanced match a bit less unbalanced.
I don't think that getting inducements makes up for having bad players, or having to play vs a team with one turners out of the box.
MA 10 Gutter Runners would be more common.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: May 28, 2016 - 21:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Inducements-TV difference is the current form of handicapping.
As Krytie pointed out, it's probably a bad idea on starting line ups
or
Thinking a bit more about it now it's been necroed I think it would be pretty inconceivable to have say a human lineman with a 5 2 2 7 statline. Simply he wouldn't make it past the trials.

So I would suggest the following caveat.

"Although stat lines are identical, players are average professionals for that position. Therefore you may not have more than 1 negative and more than 1 positive stat change on one player.

'More than 1 negative stat'. If your player rolls more than one neg stat, choose which neg stat you wish to take.

'More than 1 positive stat'. The positive stat is chosen at random on a die roll.

Individual players may still take stats on skill rolls and may start with a negative and a positive non-standard stat line.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: May 28, 2016 - 21:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Matthueycamo wrote:
Probably be fun to create but would not work past that.


Why not? Why u hhate?

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pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: May 28, 2016 - 21:35 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:
MattDakka wrote:

This system strongly encourages players cycling if a team has a huge treasury.


Obviously, this couldn't be allowed.

It also wouldn't work at all with the current Box system. Also I appreciate your stance on random events.

So imagine playing elves: you lose a catcher and you buy a new one with bad stats, you are forced to keep him.
Basically it's bad for teams with expensive players and with few gold in their Treasury.
I like randomness as long as it spices up the things a bit, but I don't like it when it creates very unbalanced situations.
This is why I hate some Kick Off events and Weather rolls.


I suggest going and playing chess than, hater.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 28, 2016 - 23:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I used to play Chess, but I didn't like the deterministic system.
There are many degrees of randomness, something possibly too hard for you to grasp.

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DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: May 29, 2016 - 00:15 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
I used to play Chess, but I didn't like the deterministic system.
There are many degrees of randomness, something possibly too hard for you to grasp.


Come now, come now. You mastered chess to the point it was all determined from move 1? Capablanca would be impressed.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 29, 2016 - 00:47 Reply with quote Back to top

DarthPhysicist wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
I used to play Chess, but I didn't like the deterministic system.
There are many degrees of randomness, something possibly too hard for you to grasp.


Come now, come now. You mastered chess to the point it was all determined from move 1? Capablanca would be impressed.

Never said I mastered Chess, I only said that I didn't like the deterministic aspect of Chess, because it makes many parts of a game the same over and over again, not that the outcome is deterministically decided from move 1.

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GoodVybz



Joined: Apr 26, 2016

Post   Posted: May 29, 2016 - 06:48 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
DarthPhysicist wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
I used to play Chess, but I didn't like the deterministic system.
There are many degrees of randomness, something possibly too hard for you to grasp.


Come now, come now. You mastered chess to the point it was all determined from move 1? Capablanca would be impressed.

Never said I mastered Chess, I only said that I didn't like the deterministic aspect of Chess, because it makes many parts of a game the same over and over again, not that the outcome is deterministically decided from move 1.


Predicting Human behavior is a pretty extreme degree of randomness, to the point that chess masters are able to beat deterministic super computers.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: May 29, 2016 - 08:15 Reply with quote Back to top

GoodVybz wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
DarthPhysicist wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
I used to play Chess, but I didn't like the deterministic system.
There are many degrees of randomness, something possibly too hard for you to grasp.


Come now, come now. You mastered chess to the point it was all determined from move 1? Capablanca would be impressed.

Never said I mastered Chess, I only said that I didn't like the deterministic aspect of Chess, because it makes many parts of a game the same over and over again, not that the outcome is deterministically decided from move 1.


Predicting Human behavior is a pretty extreme degree of randomness, to the point that chess masters are able to beat deterministic super computers.


Something I often notice about the way proponents of chess argue for the complexity of the game is that they like to argue in a complete uncomparative void.

Basically it's always about how many different variations of moves can be generated over the course of the game. But when you tell that to a Blood Bowl coach it is worth noting that I'm quite certain that there have never been two identical games of that. The same is probably true for a lot of other games. Also not dice based games.

It seems worth noting that the interest in advanced chess seems to be generated from the ability to be able to almost but not quite plan a game through exactly because the possibilities are so limited.

Basically an experienced chess player will certainly have a couple of standard routes in mind how a game could develop. In case these routes are persued by his opponent he will virtually be able to see ahead of events until the end from turn 1 onwards.

What I think chess players talk about when they talk about the many possibilities is that players often or rather regularly deviate from the established pathes at one point or another.
There are just enough possible moves to make an unexpected move not necessarily a mistake from the start.

But the problem of course is that any path that is likely to lead to success is worth researching for both opponents. So doing something that is supposedly a mistake is of course a good way to catch an opponent off guard.

The same doesn't apply to a computer of course since a computer has no or today at least less of a concept of what a good move is and what isn't. It just tries to see ahead of all possibilities and stumbles over the own neverending quantities.

Regardless of dice there is also a variant to play in BB that offers the highest probability of success. Probable outcomes, all outcomes with a probability can also be planned for. Just the sheer complexity is so beyond any measurable means that a computer would have problems to go through a single turn trying to force calculate every possible variant it could play through its turn.
pac



Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Post   Posted: May 29, 2016 - 15:18 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
If you look at the closest real life sports (rugby, American football, Aussie rules etc) you have players playing in a position that are very very different.

Couple of things.

Blood Bowlers are actually mostly more like footballers in physique.

I know the other games you mention are often compared to Blood Bowl, but BB is very much the Warhammer world's version of *football*. It's 11-a-side. BB is a very English (as opposed to UK or British) project and football is very much the dominant sport. Back in the day, football could be very brutal. Way before that, they did run with the ball in their hands, and whole crowds or whole villages played each other. The authorities didn't like it, but they completely missed the point that people were doing this *instead of having things like gang wars*!

In the Warhammer world, having a Blood Bowl team or two is healthy for a city in relieving tension in the same way that having a football club was during industrialisation. But for the team to stay tied close to the city, its players need to remain mostly local and there has to be the chance that any local might be able to play for it.

So yeah, in Blood Bowl, enjoyment of the pitch violence and the violence in the stands (and imagine what the violence might be like out on the streets!) keeps people from fighting all week as well, or from trying to start a war to get their fix.


Except for the likes of Black Orcs, BBers are not bulked up — it was a 3rd ed experiment to invite Black Orcs to play; some of aren't sure it's healthy for them, because they've ended up in danger of becoming pigeon-holed as big, dumb and brutish.

Strip off the armour and put them on the right diet and exercise programme and they slim down into Orcs who are just that little bit better, faster, stronger and *smarter* than the average Orc. Everybody's acceptant of the idea that Orcs can be found attractive. It just depends what style of Orc you like. Black Orcs from the era of Warhammer Armies looked pretty awesome. Black Orcs are kind of the Space Marines of the Orcs. More like Orc Nobz from 40K (who are that much bigger, yes, but it's more significant that they are the guys in charge who have the stylish gear).

Most Orc Blitzers are probably Black Orcs. But it's not as if the difference between an Orc and a Black Orc has ever been that clearly defined. They are probably just the result of the upper orc caste choosing the best mates for itself.


Wood Elves certainly have footballer-like physiques! Footballers these days mostly have fairly similar physiques. There are a few who are significantly different in body shape (from Lionel Messi at one end to Peter Crouch at the other). Theo Walcott would make a great Wood Elf Catcher! (If that Galak fucker hadn't hamstrung them, that is.)


Anyway, up-shot of all this is that I'm afraid varied starting stats for the same position don't make that much sense to me. A certain type of coach might *experiment* with using one body-type in a position it's not normally used for: but you can simulate that in your positioning by, say, setting your Black Orc where you'd usually put your Thrower.

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pac



Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Post   Posted: May 29, 2016 - 15:35 Reply with quote Back to top

@Wreckage — That chess is still being played on a significant scale is hilarious to me. I find it hard to imagine that there can be much money in it these days.


For the Persians who invented it, chess was a cultural test. They were asking the people who wanted to buy the cool games they were known for:

1. Is your petty little monarchy actually an empire, albeit not one as magnificent as ours?

2. Or is it a republic in which the monarch is actually disposable?

3. We suspect that you may just be a bunch of nasty people who go along with the orders of a nasty dictator. (Like modern UK-ites, for example.)


If you want to convince the Persians that the answer is #1, you have to be quite sophisticated and, while making a few opening moves of whatever sort, ask questions like: "What's the objective of this game again? Why is the King the war goal? The Queen seems to be far more powerful." "Quite. And I wonder what the Bishop is meant to represent." "I'm not sure, but I do *certainly* remember that scene from the Thomas Crowne Affair." "Those were the days. So, in that context, the Bishop is some woman comfortable with sex toys …" "Hmm." "I'm starting to think there are things we could be doing that are a lot more fun than chess." Then they abandon the board and go off and have sex …

If you want answer 2., then you need to play *against* the Persian Emperor, to prove that you are a true republican undaunted by the divinity of a monarch. Classically here, the republican player is a Dutchman, but the Emperor turns to look just like him. They discuss the rules and … "Wait, why at the end do I just say, 'Checkmate'? I know your language. That's Shah Maty = the King is Dead. If we're meant to kill the King, then we must end the game by *taking* the piece. If someone wanted to concede and not die, they can do that right at the start." "Exactly," says the Emperor. "A true republican is always ready to kill his *own* king, or queen, or president, if that proves necessary. Never mind the enemy's. And now that I believe you are one, I will concede on my first move. I don't take risks with my own life." "So what does that mean for the political outcome. I'm just here for trade, I can't foresee a Dutch–Iranian War. "Iran? Yes, that's what we call ourselves when *we* decide to be a republic." "Flexibility is key." "Oh, there are many keys, believe me. Let me tell you some secrets …"

If you play straight 3. and just treat it like a war-game, which it is not, it is a game about monarchy in the context of warlike culture, then people will keep assuming you are (in modern terms) fascist, seeing everything in black and white, never thinking of anything else except how to win again and how to conquer more.



Edit: TL;DR, republican empires (that are both 1 and 2) are still where it's at, as far as I'm aware. They got all the good stuff. Simple little black vs white monarchies? Increasingly excluded from world culture, trade and affairs these days. Just upgrade your constitution, UK, it's not that hard.

And, of course, a Soviet would respond to the situation of chess by gathering the pawns into a little circle, thus forming them into a soldiers' advisory council, and asking them what they thought. The opponent would ask in irritation when it was allowed to move. Reply: "In your own time. But seriously, if you imagine real war is turn-based, you're in for a rude awakening. In fact, I'm going to go Red Turn right now." She flips out and blows the little monarchist's head off.

Stands for the national anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs


*pac seized FUMBBL on behalf of the English Soviet Socialist Punk Republic*

(Alternate anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNE_rpJgwJk )

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