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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 18:37 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Due to the avoided GFI at least 13.89% easier, assuming no rr available.


14% easier of the odds of scoring a OTTD, which is what 5%? 0.14 x 0.05 ain't much.

Bear in mind that your wolf could die during this OTTD attempt. Failing a gfi gets an AV roll. How much easier is it to break 8AV compared to 9AV?

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 18:43 Reply with quote Back to top

That kind of sums it up.

If you're too scared to try to win a game because your armor might break, take +AV.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 18:46 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
Due to the avoided GFI at least 13.89% easier, assuming no rr available.


14% easier of the odds of scoring a OTTD, which is what 5%? 0.14 x 0.05 ain't much.

Bear in mind that your wolf could die during this OTTD attempt. Failing a gfi gets an AV roll. How much easier is it to break 8AV compared to 9AV?

the 1TTD is generally worth the risk of losing the player, if you aim to win, this of course may vary: if you play in a private league where even a draw is enough to win the season then trying to preserve the player might make sense.

Breaking the AV 8 is 27.77%
Breaking the AV 9 is 16.66
11.11% difference


With MA 8 you have to GFI one extra square, so tripping would happen more often.
Twelfman



Joined: Oct 23, 2014

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 18:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I've taken AV8 on a High Elf catcher, has saved my bacon more than once. 8/3/4/8 is not to be sniffed at.
c9805222



Joined: May 11, 2016

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 19:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Turn 1 of the 2nd half in this game: https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3863663

would you rather the movement or the av?
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 19:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Twelfman wrote:
I've taken AV8 on a High Elf catcher, has saved my bacon more than once. 8/3/4/8 is not to be sniffed at.


Neither is 9347.

How did it save your bacon anyway? Exactly how many times were the armor breaks on an actual 8?
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 20:59 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
On a werewolf +MA is a no brainer, makes 1TTD way easier.


How much easier? I can't recall a one-turn by a necro team. I can't recall a necro game where a wolf hasn't been vulnerable.



Necro ottd is actually not that hard at all - especially for two wolf necro who can frenzy push 2x on the blitz. Added to that is the natural progression of a wolf to take blodge/ss on normals.

The real issue is the dodge at the end - but that's why you spend turns fouling anything you can to create a gap if it becomes obvious you'll need to ottd.

You can also take leap. Wolves have a lot of leeway in skill selection.

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 21:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Grod wrote:
..But NO ONE ever gives a troll slayer +AV, they always take +MA.

Similarly for witch elves, dark elf runners, orc throwers, ghouls etc. No one ever gives them +AV even though they are often not on the team because of low AV.

Can someone clarify?

AV7 players are often players who want high move such as for ball carrying (Ghouls, throwers, catchers) or frenzy (Witch Elves). Or maybe they need some other basic skill first. I can see thralls, Big Guys, av7 linos all benefitting if they don't have a block or dodge option on normal roll due. Trollslayers is a good call too. Not that I have ever chosen it..

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 21:26 Reply with quote Back to top

"Breaking the AV 8 is 27.77%
Breaking the AV 9 is 16.66
11.11% difference "

Common mistake
It's not 11% better, it's 66% better, it's the ratio
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 21:37 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
On top of that, when the Werewolf faces Claw all his +AV is useless, +MA is never useless.

Depends if he used his extra square of move before his armour was broken and he was stuck in the cas box.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 23:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
"Breaking the AV 8 is 27.77%
Breaking the AV 9 is 16.66
11.11% difference "

Common mistake
It's not 11% better, it's 66% better, it's the ratio


Come on man! If I wanted a math class I would go back to college to get my masters.

We deal with gut reactions and chiseled in stone ways to play the game that will never change around here.

All that math stuff, goes in one ear and out the other.

Laughing Very Happy

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 23:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I can't remember ever having taken +AV on a player. Usually, I'd much rather have an active skill or +MA than something that gives one player a small increase in their chance of staying on the pitch.

As an example, imo, it's worth paying an extra 10k per player for High Elf linemen to have an extra point of AV compared with Pro Elf linemen. Across the whole team, that adds up to an extra 100k, which is probably still worth it. However, would I pay 30k per player and use up a skill slot to get the same result, which would cost 300k across the whole team? Heck no!

Ok, that's a very specific example and maybe you can say that it might be worth taking it on certain 'key players', rather than blanket across the whole team. No, I still don't think so, as those key players will almost always have something else they can take that makes them more effective. Plus, add in the fact that any Claw player will render your +AV completely useless ... no thanks. +MA can reliably be used every turn, if you need it, and nothing can simply cancel it out.

If I want AV8, I'll play High Elves rather than Wood Elves or Skaven. If I want AV9, I'll play Orcs or Dwarves ... Wink

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Uedder



Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 23:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Just for Fanatics.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 21, 2017 - 23:45 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
11.11% difference

I'll take that over 0,007% more chances to score a OTTD if you don't mind, if only because I'd rather try to OTTD with a wolf on the board than with one stuck in the KO box. As if a GFI would prevent me from trying to OTTD.

When was the last time you saw a Wolf OTTD, and would you pick +MA or +AV on Ulfwerners? What about 8AV big guys?

MattDakka wrote:
+MA is never useless.

Of course +MA's useless every single turn you don't need your full MA. Since AV is useless because of Clawz, I guess people should stop playing with 9AV teams, or we should stop taking Tackle because there are dodgeless teams.

The question is not about optimality anyway, but about worth. At best optimality is environment-relative. At worse it's the byproduct of imagination-free Naffy pseudo-Chess players.

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Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 22, 2017 - 03:49 Reply with quote Back to top

+AV is usually better than +MA but +MA is worth taking on more occasions (might sound like a contradiction but it isn't)

Is +AV ever worth taking? I like to think it's worth taking on line fodder with only G-access. At least after Block and Tackle.
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