mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jun 26, 2017 - 20:43 |
 
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You can even have fun within the scope of trying to win every game - the skills you assign to players can be a bit off the beaten path, fun, and help give you a leg up sometimes. Also, building teams up to stratospheric heights, just to see how far you can go before the team is cut back down can also be fun.
Really though, the strategic meta does not lend itself to fast paced high scoring games by default. I love them more than any other kind of game but it's the exception, not the rule. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jun 26, 2017 - 21:38 |
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Asking teams not to stall is like complaining because khemri aren't dodging and passing.
Play to a teams strengths. Cracking a stall or forcing a quick score is part of the strategy. Stalling perfectly can be very tricky at times. It's what the game is all about really. Minimising risk.the better you get the more you will enjoy it I'm sure  |
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Zhems
Joined: Jun 25, 2017
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Jun 27, 2017 - 11:38 |
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OMG! I really kicked the hornets nest.
I see that the majority of responses here can be summed up as "Quit whining noob, play our way or leave!" Very welcoming, indeed.
There have been a lot of assumptions in peoples answers, the main being that I am a noob. I've been playing Bloodbowl since 1st ed; I am not an inexperienced player by any means. Ive played more 'real world' leagues than some of you have had hot dinners. And on here is the only time I have experienced Stalling so consistently. Thats part of the reason I posed the question to start off with.
I choose not to stall. I feel its unfair on my opponent so I dont do it. Thats the spirit of the game; looking to my friend playing in a way that they will have fun. Stalling takes away their chance at vengeance, their chance to score, their chance to do more than just stand up or roll over the players they have on the ground.
A few people have talked of stalling in real world American football; stalling sucks. It spoils the flow of the game. But it makes sense because they are playing for money. We are playing for fun. For me its the fun of playing against diferent people, maybe make new friends. Winning is secondary, but not unimportant.
Thats my spirit of the game. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jun 27, 2017 - 11:49 |
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| Zhems wrote: | OMG! I really kicked the hornets nest.
I see that the majority of responses here can be summed up as "Quit whining noob, play our way or leave!" Very welcoming, indeed. |
I really don't think that's the case.
I think some people are being cheeky and jokey sure. But I am sure no one feels that way quoted above^
I think where you are possibly missing the main point is- some races would be playing with a huge handicap if they did not stall.
As I posted above why would Dwarfs ever go for a quick score? when it is hard for them to do, and when not stalling would mean they would lose or draw the majority of their games.
This is a chess like game (albeit with a large slice of luck) you will find that stalling is an absolutely huge part of where the strategy is.
Suggesting slow teams should not stall is like telling elves to stand toe to toe with bash teams.
Most people want to win when they play. Not stalling makes games something of a formality the majority of the time. |
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Helloo
Joined: May 18, 2015
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Jun 27, 2017 - 12:00 |
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All the races have advantages and disadvantages. If people can't win without stalling for some races it could be that they aren't skillful enough.
By your rationale Garion maybe it IS against the spirit for elves and fast teams to stall? Because then they would have 2 advantages, speed and stalling. |
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Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
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Jun 27, 2017 - 12:01 |
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Yeah I don't think people have flamed this at all. They've mainly tried to be very positive. Compared to some topics I don't think you've kicked the hornets nest at all, on the contrary, I think many people who encountered a similar problem when they joined the site have been trying to explain how they got through this stage. I think the answer is in what you say:
That's my spirit of the game.
It's great that you approach the game in that sense but there are others who approach it differently and it doesn't make their spirit of the game any less valid. If you want to play with others who share your spirit of the game then I think there used to be some leagues that are against stalling and there may still be for all I know.
But as an optimal strategy for winning, stalling is common and as most of the people who play here do not see it as in any way wrong, you will encounter stalling frequently. Many of the people on this site will see stalling as fun (it's a good challenge working out how to stall effectively and how to stop it). I actually would find the game less fun if nobody else stalled, winning would become too easy and if I didn't stall either it would become too imbalanced in favour of some teams and/or increase the luck factor in the game to a level I would find uninteresting.
I don't think anyone here is telling you how to play. In my experience, if you want to play in a suboptimal way you will actually be welcomed with open arms as others love to win.
But expecting others to handicap themselves is wishful thinking.
I hope you stick around and have a blast. Ideally, you will find the skill and fun in controlling the 'clock' and enjoy many games across the site and at worst I hope you find like-minded people with whom you can enjoy playing. |
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Cerberus85
Joined: May 06, 2017
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Jun 27, 2017 - 12:21 |
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| Zhems wrote: | We are playing for fun. For me its the fun of playing against diferent people, maybe make new friends. Winning is secondary, but not unimportant.
Thats my spirit of the game. |
Fair play to you for this approach. However, the spirit of the game as an expression is open to interpretation. Your way of playing may be completely different to another persons. Unless you are friends with that individual and share a similar viewpoint you will always run the risk of having your opponents (especially in such a large environment as this one) play the game in a way you deem boring/unnecessary.
Mores to the point, you cannot expect people to conform to your way of thinking unless as has been stipulated you create an environment where you could enforce your particular dynamic such as a league.
Finally some coaches play to the spirit of the game by creating team back stories and/or thematic player names etc. Some coaches play the way they imagine the race they have chosen would play. Eg Orcs bashing and smashing anything and everything they can - from all the BB background and history this seems appropriate. Likewise an UW or Goblin team continuing to foul when they have a man advantage because they are horrible little sods.
Anyway bottom line up front: you can't expect people to play the way you want them to, no matter how honourable your intentions may be.
As an opened question to all - it has been expressed that NFL teams stall as they are playing for money not fun. To that end then, do high school American Football teams stall? What about even younger teams - do they stall? |
Last edited by Cerberus85 on %b %27, %2017 - %12:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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finsterface
Joined: Apr 29, 2012
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Jun 27, 2017 - 12:24 |
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| Zhems wrote: | | OMG! I really kicked the hornets nest |
I think that's a true observation, however...
| Zhems wrote: | | I see that the majority of responses here can be summed up as "Quit whining noob, play our way or leave!" Very welcoming, indeed. |
...this is not how interpret the majority of the responses. My take is: Welcome to the site, but take a bit more time to get oriented. Quite a few (maybe almost all) people have been to where you're at (whether they admit to it or not - or even remember those times or whether they have played a 1000 matches with a good friend over dinner, or not) and have since realized, that the diversity of coaches makes it virtually impossible to proclaim the one-and-only "spirit of the game" *on this site*.
All those controverse tactics and topics, stalling, clawpombing, 1-turners, fouling, even t-16-fouls have advocates and adversaries.
The one thing that's probably true for anyone (playing in one of the competitive divisions, anyways) is: You gotta live with *all* of these tactics. If you seriously reject one of them and are not willing to face it - find a league, where others share your set of ideas, but avoid the competitive divisons (esp. B).
| Zhems wrote: | | There have been a lot of assumptions in peoples answers, the main being that I am a noob. I've been playing Bloodbowl since 1st ed; I am not an inexperienced player by any means. Ive played more 'real world' leagues than some of you have had hot dinners. And on here is the only time I have experienced Stalling so consistently. Thats part of the reason I posed the question to start off with. |
Well, I believe you, that you've possibly played way more games than me and possibly you are a better coach, but you *certainly* haven't played a great diversity of other coaches, if you get so upset by some coaches stalling and if you think, that your idea of the "spirit of the game" is the one and only truth.
I mean hell, there seem to be coaches who suppose the "spirit of the game" involves t-16-fouls with a leaping troll (doesn't include me  ). I've never played that guy, but I can see, that might be fun. And I suppose there are lots others (myself included) who interpret the "spirit of the game" as just playing to win - whatever tactics that involves.
| Zhems wrote: | | I choose not to stall. I feel its unfair on my opponent so I dont do it. Thats the spirit of the game; |
I think the last part of this is where you *will* run into trouble on (the competitive divisions of) this site: If you feel you have a right to proclaim what's right, fair and what isn't - especially if that's opposed to those users who are most active on the site. Restricting the in-game-tactics for winning a match will just generate lots of opposition from those coaches who are interested in their rankings, where every win (tie and loss) is accounted for - and probably other coaches, as well.
And maybe, for some, saying you're a noob is just one way to answer your stance, that their way of playing is "unfair". |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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| Helloo wrote: | | All the races have advantages and disadvantages. If people can't win without stalling for some races it could be that they aren't skillful enough. |
First, my chosen race, the bearded stunties known as Dwarves. The other day someone said I was the best in the world with Dwarves. That isn't true, but I'm not bad with them. Probably in the best 5 on FUMBBL, certainly i would hope in the top ten.
I am not good enough to win as dwarves without stalling.
Second, I am not a terrible elf coach. Not great, but not terrible. There are times i could score and 'possibly' still win with elves, or stall and make that 'almost certainly'.
It's not a hard choice is it?
To the Original Poster:
As I alluded to in my first post. Stalling isn't just about me, it's also about you. Firstly it's about you letting me stall. But secondly it's also about my assessment of your threat level if I give you the ball back, be that to score or to cause casualties. Sometimes it is better to win 1-0 and face only a blitz in the final turn than score for 2-0 and face 3 LOS blocks (and possible blitz) and what little you have left.
Everyone plays with their own morality, their own conditions of 'fairness'. Some game right up to the line of what the site allows, some (including me) set their own conditions, as you have. That's all good and fine. What isn't so cool is trying to force, intimidate or shame others into following your moral code. Lead, encourage, persuade... all fine. But there is no 'absolute right' in gaming morality, so be welcome to yours but let others have their own, eh?
As to your moral choices. Good luck with them. The reason people are so universally attempting to persuade you otherwise is many of us have been here some time (14 years for me) and seen coaches with similar thoughts many times. there are only ever 2 outcomes. You learn and change your mind, or lose so much you leave. We would mostly rather you stayed as new players are always a good thing. Without stalling you will lose to even the greenest of coaches that allows themselves the full choice of tactical options. and lose and lose and lose. If you can find fun that way then I salute you and please carry on. But on past experience, this seems unlikely.
For amusement only, as so far you have been perfectly pleasant, i offer you this from 2008: Ballard of the RLHero
If you are utterly determined then at least let me point you in the way of teams that can live without stalling. Teams that score fast and are lethal on defence, so really you want to be coaching:
Wood Elves
Pro Elves
Skaven
and maybe, if you are highly skilled as a coach...
Vampires
Slann
But that's about it.
the 'bash' or strength base rosters are right out, and even the more mixed and hybrid rosters will never be competitive with such an overarching strategy. Now that's fine, not everyone plays to be competitive. But those are the limits you are imposing on yourself.
Everyone having their own fun is my spirit of the game. |
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Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone |
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Helloo
Joined: May 18, 2015
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Jun 27, 2017 - 12:51 |
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That may be PurpleChest, but then what about my question to Garion whether it is therefore unfair for elves to also be stalling? If dwarves need to stall just to have a fair chance then why should elves be allowed the same advantage? Isn't there a conflict there?
I think anyone should be able to say what they think is fair, and there can be an open discussion where we see the merits of the arguments. If it's wrong, there is nothing for anyone to feel threatened about surely. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Jun 27, 2017 - 13:00 |
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| Zhems wrote: | OMG! I really kicked the hornets nest.
I see that the majority of responses here can be summed up as "Quit whining noob, play our way or leave!" Very welcoming, indeed. |
It seems to me that it's quite the other way around. You're the one who seems to be saying to the community you've just joined: "What the heck are you people doing? Everyone should be playing my way!"
It's a long-established norm on FUMBBL that people can play in whatever way they want to. So, if you don't want to stall, that's fine, but conversely, your opponents are perfectly within their rights to stall, if they want (or foul you on turn 16, whatever..).
Realistically, you're either going to come to accept that others can play as they want, or you're probably going to end up finding somewhere else to play BB. |
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"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2
"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jun 27, 2017 - 13:03 |
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@helloo - in short no
Purplechest answered everything. But on your point is it unfair for elves to be stalling - no, obviously not.
Without going in to too much detail - there is a big difference tactically/strategically between an elf/skaven stall and a dwarf/orc/nurgle stall. How you approach the game in order to score in turn 7 or 8 with elves is very very different thing. I'm not going in to specifics here as an elf stall could be discussed in a 20 page article. But in short, low av9, lack of st access, st 3 or less all round a team means you cannot grind down the pitch and set up camp. It doesn't work like that. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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As long as you stay on the 'persuade, encourage and demonstrate' side of the line, and avoid the 'condemn, disparage and judge' paradigm then I am all for discussion and debate. there is nothing wrong with stating your moral choices and preferences, just don't judge others by them, while also being aware that in stating them you invite others to judge you for yours.
As to the 'Garion dilema':
'If dwarves need to stall just to have a fair chance then why should elves be allowed the same advantage? '
They don't. Good luck pressuring my Dwarf stall, or beating up my isolated Dwarves. Most elf stalls will crumble under the right pressure. Or at least enough doubt can be created that the score become the safer option.
And you are comparing apples and chalk. the different races have such differing skill sets that no 2 stall (exactly) the same. Like every aspect of the game their are nuances that remain race specific.
The one aspect of your post that troubles me is..
'I think anyone should be able to say what they think is fair, and there can be an open discussion where we see the merits of the arguments'
Which comes across that you expect there to be a single unifying 'fair' that can eventually be reached and agreed on. there simply isn't.
If, of course, you meant...... they think is fair 'for them, and without judgement of others differing choices', and there can be......... then that's chilly McCool. But if you think your 'fair' is ever going to be adopted by others, you havnt met the internet. Or people. |
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Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone |
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Helloo
Joined: May 18, 2015
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Jun 27, 2017 - 13:08 |
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What you said there hardly amounts to an "obviously not". If it needs a 20 page article, it's actually quite a complicated theory you have. |
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Helloo
Joined: May 18, 2015
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Jun 27, 2017 - 13:21 |
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PurpleChest, well, I do actually. I wasn't talking about that though, I meant that arguments do not always follow good logic and we could have mistaken conclusions based on them. So sometimes people like to discuss their reasons. |
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