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Poll
Who comes out on top?
Humans
16%
 16%  [ 11 ]
Norse
9%
 9%  [ 6 ]
Araby
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Brettonian
7%
 7%  [ 5 ]
Cathay
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Estalia
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
Kislev
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Kingdom of Ind
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Tilea
3%
 3%  [ 2 ]
Four Nations
3%
 3%  [ 2 ]
Zons (zzzzzzzz)
29%
 29%  [ 19 ]
Nippon
12%
 12%  [ 8 ]
Nipponese
9%
 9%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 65


c9805222



Joined: May 11, 2016

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2017 - 11:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Its an objective observation of the player and their strengths vs. their cost when compared to like players - not related to teams, not related experience just an observation.

As to the double comment - claw is a double for all minotaurs (and rat ogres) to my knowledge, mighty blow isn't.

20k more than a minotaur - loses thick skull, gains av9. gains juggernaut, claw (double), regenerate (not possible for other wild animals).

It's probably not the player its the pricing.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2017 - 12:37 Reply with quote Back to top

c9805222 wrote:
Its an objective observation of the player and their strengths vs. their cost when compared to like players - not related to teams, not related experience just an observation.

As to the double comment - claw is a double for all minotaurs (and rat ogres) to my knowledge, mighty blow isn't.

20k more than a minotaur - loses thick skull, gains av9. gains juggernaut, claw (double), regenerate (not possible for other wild animals).

It's probably not the player its the pricing.


I think you misunderstand how pricing is worked out. Also you miss out that Oni is ag1 as opposed to 2

these are the rules for creating Big Guys -
5) BIG GUY PLAYER
This player type starts as:
5/5/2/9 (Loner), (Negatrait), (Damage Skill) -- 160,000 gold
A team should only be allowed to have one Big Guy type on it

Allowed:
If the team has any ST 3+ players (other than the Big Guy) then 0-1 allowed
If the team's strongest other players are ST 2 then 0-2 or 0-1 allowed
If the team's strongest other players are ST 1 then 0-6, 0-4, 0-2, or 0-1 allowed
No player of this type should be priced for less than 110k

Skills disallowed to this player type:
Block, Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty, Titchy
Loner: If the team has no other players with ST over 2 than the Big Guy should be allowed to have Loner
removed (if desired) for no increase to his price.
Negatraits (a Big Guy must have one of these):
Bone-head and Wild Animal do not change the price
Really Stupid subtracts 20k from the price
Take Root subtracts 30k from the price
Damage Skill (a Big Guy must have one of these 2 skills):
Mighty Blow does not change the price
Claw adds 10k to the price

All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following:
10k: Thick Skull, Throw Team-Mate
-10k: Always Hungry skill (Note: a Big Guy MUST have Throw Team-Mate to take Always Hungry)
-10k: Decay
30k: Regeneration

The following stat changes are allowed to this player type:
MA 2: -90k
MA 3: -50k
MA 4: -20k
MA 6: +30k
ST 6: +50k
AG 1: -20k
AV 8: -10k
AV 10: +20k

5/5/2/9 (Loner), (Negatrait), (Damage Skill) -- 160,000 gold

so 5/5/2/9 loner, Wa, claw(+10) 160 (total 160)
AG 1: -20k (total 150)
regen +30 (total 180)
frenzy +20 (total 200)
Juggernaut +20 (total 220)
horns +20 (total 240)

Then the next step of creation is you divide anything over 100 by 2, so 140/2 = 70

total =170k
Now at this point you can choose to add 10k, or subtract 10k for balance reasons. So I could if I wanted make him 180k. However there is no need currently as the team is still performing as expected in the tier 1 win percentage range after almost 600 games. Its also worth noting that there is one stand out team, which if removed from the games played list the win percentage would drop right down to tier 1.5. Currently they are performing lower than the unofficial tier 0 which contains - Undead, Wood Elves, Necromantic and Amazons and maybe Skaven I cant remember. whose win percentage is around the 60% mark last time i checked.

If the teams started being too dominant I would consider adding the 10k though. But that's not the case so far.

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c9805222



Joined: May 11, 2016

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2017 - 13:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Here's the thing in a comparison of like to like players the Oni wins, hands down.

here's the tv of minotaur with those skills - base tv 150 + 20 (juggs) +20 (claw) +30 (regen - assume its a double) 220 and the minotaur has 31 spps and space for 3 more skills. Total TV 220

Oni - 170 + mighty blow = 190TV and 6 spps has space for 5 more skills... which would you prefer on your team?

Is regen only worth 30k on an av9 big guy?


Last edited by c9805222 on Jun 16, 2017 - 19:56; edited 2 times in total
Zlefin



Joined: Apr 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2017 - 16:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Depends on how long the league runs for. I'm not sure if there's a standard number. Zons clearly rule early on, and are decently strong in general. Many of the secret league teams have considerable potential, but are markedly weaker in starting skills than more typical human teams. If the league runs long enough for them to get their players filled up they might be able to win enough to counteract their poor early performance.
Jeffthejar



Joined: Aug 31, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2017 - 16:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Just wanted to point out that, at least on a Chaos Chosen team, a Mino gets access to Claw as a normal roll.

I saw someone mentioned a claw as a doubles skill for a Mino; that should be only true on Chdorf teams (not often you find a Mino there, anyways) and Cpact teams.

In the SL, I believe the Khorne Mino gets access to Claw on a normal roll, as well. I believe all other Minos in the SL do need a double, though, not 100% sure.
TrueDestiny52



Joined: Mar 25, 2017

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2017 - 17:44 Reply with quote Back to top

c9805222 wrote:
Here's the thing in a comparison of like to like players the Oni wins, hands down.

here's the tv of minotaur with those skills - base tv 150 + 20 (juggs) +40 (claw) +40 (regen - assume its a double) 250 - 30 for the ag (not that an ag1 big guy on the team really matters...) and the minotaur has 31 spps and space for 3 more skills. Total TV 220

Oni - 170 + mighty blow = 190TV and 6 spps has space for 5 more skills... which would you prefer on your team?


I understand your concern, but it seems Garion has got you beat. Especially cuz he's been monitoring these teams since day one of their release, also there is the fact that he designed them, and he tweaks them as needed. I don't thi nk the oni is all that powerful for Northern Nippon, but the sumos are much more of a threat in my eyes. A big guy without mb is almost pointless, especially if he has wild animal which will keep him down for a while once he is down
Jeffthejar



Joined: Aug 31, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2017 - 17:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Plus, the maths are a bit off on that TV comparison between Mino/Oni from c9805222.... it looks like doubles were being counted as +40k TV when a double only adds 30k TV (unless there is some SL rule which changed that, which I am unaware of).

So you can take 20k TV off of that final number and arrive at 200k TV (or 190k TV if we are talking about a Chaos Chosen Mino or a Khorne Mino).
c9805222



Joined: May 11, 2016

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2017 - 19:32 Reply with quote Back to top

you have a chaos dwarf or a chaos renegade or a chaos pact team and your have the choice of the oni or minotaur - what do you take?
c9805222



Joined: May 11, 2016

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2017 - 19:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Jeffthejar wrote:
Plus, the maths are a bit off on that TV comparison between Mino/Oni from c9805222.... it looks like doubles were being counted as +40k TV when a double only adds 30k TV (unless there is some SL rule which changed that, which I am unaware of).

So you can take 20k TV off of that final number and arrive at 200k TV (or 190k TV if we are talking about a Chaos Chosen Mino or a Khorne Mino).


corrected my maths. also removed the -30k for the ag reduction.
bram



Joined: Jan 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2017 - 20:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I lost the [SL]umbl Cup II final to Jokaro's Northern Nippon because of a horrible Oni. The same team kicked out my other team in the quarter final. Again, because of the Oni.

It happened in a SL Brawl semi-final too. I really think Oni's are too hard, especially with a few skills on them. They can get tentacles too (usually second skill after mighty blow), try to get away from it then...

Sure, 1/6 blitzes with a wild animal fail, but from those 5/6 that work, you will really suffer...

And obviously, Jokaero is a very good coach, but winning 7 tournaments with a team that played only 29 games is a bit odd, no?
TrueDestiny52



Joined: Mar 25, 2017

Post   Posted: Jun 16, 2017 - 20:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Fair enough in your case, but you have to remember, getting block as his first skill requires a fair amount of luck. And in game, claw doesn't work well until you get mightyblow so early, an oni sucks compared to a mino, but in theory their development should be better
bram



Joined: Jan 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 23, 2017 - 14:30 Reply with quote Back to top

It happened again in this game. Once more the Oni inflicted 100% of the casualties done by its team. The tentacles are the problem, since they prevent dodging away. They basically resolve the wild animal problem on their own.

That's three encounters now with that team, and I lost all three. Due to the Oni (who kept Eldril effectively out of the game). He's a problem. And that makes Northern Nippon by far the best human team. They don't have any true weakness such as low ST or low AV players. They have strength, speed and decent agility. With an overpowered big bad mean guy to top it all of. Off with my head if Sushi Go! featuring Tamagoyaki doesn't win its 8th (!!) tournament in 32 games.
keggiemckill



Joined: Oct 07, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 23, 2017 - 16:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Amazon

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