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Poll
Which skill to take?
Dauntless
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Strip Ball
33%
 33%  [ 2 ]
Mighty Blow
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Guard
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Kick
33%
 33%  [ 2 ]
Surehands
33%
 33%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 6


Cerberus85



Joined: May 06, 2017

Post   Posted: Jul 24, 2017 - 06:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Evening all,

So next month my local hobby club is having another TT resurrection tournement.

Rules: 1,100,000 gps for team build plus a further 150 Tv for skills (No stat increases, no more than two doubles). No more than two skills per player. One star player can be bought per team, stunties can hire no more than two.

My team build is as follows:

Ratlanta Falchions:
Hakflem Skuttlespike
3 x Gutter Runner
2 x Storm Vermin
6 x Linerats
3 x Rerolls
Total: 1,100,000 gps

Skills
Gutter Runner - Block
Gutter Runner - Block
Gutter Runner - Wrestle
Storm Vermin - MB, Claw
Storm Vermin - Tackle

I'm unsure on the last skill choice but am considering:

Dauntless on the wrestle Gutter Runner
Strip Ball on the wrestle Gutter Runner
MB on the tackle Storm Vermin
Guard on the tackle Storm Vermin
Kick on a linerat
Surehands on a block Gutter Runner

Of the choices, I personally am leaning towards kick or guard as I feel they have the most utlity but would greatly appreciate some input from more experianced tournement players.

Also should I swap a linerat for an apothecary?

Thank you in advance!
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 24, 2017 - 07:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Quite tough as they are all good options. A few tempting skills you can't fit in. I would argue for Guard over claw though you could come up against av9s. Then probably kick, though strip ball will be useful depending who you play.

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A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 24, 2017 - 08:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Kick for sure. Consider upgrading a linerat to thrower, taking leader, dropping reroll and use the extra 30k to get the 4th gutter runner?

_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.

Oscar Wilde
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 24, 2017 - 09:58 Reply with quote Back to top

To answer your specific questions on your quoted roster: absolutely an Apo over the Linerat. This is a no brainer; saving a skilled player on a KO or worse is considerably better than having a Lino in reserve. A Strip Gutter is an important investment, and you really lack oomph, so Guard is a good choice somewhere (I might consider more than one, actually). Kick is a very underrated skill in CRP / BB2016, but in a 6 game tournament you’re unlikely to see the value compared to another skill you’ll use far more often, it’s a long term investment rather than having the impact you need in a sprint.

I’d recommend looking again at your roster. It is really light; no big guy, no Guard and you’re carrying a pretty bad value for money star player, who is greedily hoovering up your cash. Any ST / bash team coached competently will probably have you on toast. I would revert to the ‘standard’ 1.1 tournament build: RO, 4 x Gutter, 2 x SV, Thrower, Linos to 12, 2 RR, Apo (that's from memory, I've not added it up). As a general rule; if a tournament lets you have a Block big guy, get a Block big guy, so the RO has Block. This gives you someone that can hit back that the opposition actually has to think about; currently all he really needs to do is isolate or out-Guard the Claw / MB SV and the rest are sitting ducks. 11 + Apo Rats with one or no Guard or RO won't hang around too long.

After that, Leader the Thrower for a 3rd RR, Strip, perhaps even Strip / Wrestle a GR. 90 k spent, you can look at what to do with the SV. The fashion in the UK was (I say ‘was’ – Skaven are not in vogue currently. At 1.1 they struggle in high level environments) to invest in Guard so that you have an area you can control via positional blocking (inc. RO) and defend against cheeky Leaping Elves / Frogs. So I would probably take two and finish with a Tackle or an MB. If you want to go continental, you can keep the killing machine guy, but I’d rather Guard for good old reliable positioning.

These sorts of packages attract certain teams to be watchful for. There will likely be someone who goes ClawPOMB Snow Troll. Someone will go for the super Wardancer. Double Block Mummy would be terrible for Skaven (Undead are likely your worst matchup), so give some thought to that (Block RO is one way of trying to fight back). Have a little plan in mind for each of these eventualities.

All the best – have fun, and I hope we cross paths at a tournament soon! Smile
finsterface



Joined: Apr 29, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 24, 2017 - 13:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
Kick is a very underrated skill in CRP / BB2016, but in a 6 game tournament you’re unlikely to see the value compared to another skill you’ll use far more often, it’s a long term investment rather than having the impact you need in a sprint.


Interesting read about UK vs. continental fashions in Skaven-builds - always thought that only involved breakfast. Razz

What I don't understand is the kicking-part: If you thought, that kick is essential in about 1 out of 3 games, that would obviously be as true for 6 as for 60 matches. So do you mean it's more (relatively) valueable on a developed (high-TV) team?
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 24, 2017 - 13:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Quite honestly, they (the continentals, and I’m primarily thinking about the Italians here; almost everyone else seems, from the outside at least, to have gone off Skaven) might have it right. If you’re building around two MB SV, you’re upping the luck / swing factor that the roster brings. If you’re of the opinion that Rats are fringe T1 at best (perhaps somewhere between 8th and 12th on the ‘best teams’ list with no tiering in play), perhaps that’s the best way of doing it. I / the English generally prefer dependability and conservatism (and hence go Guard), but perhaps upping the variance is best? Would you rather go 4/1/1 or 3/2/1 every week or 6/0/0 one week and 2/2/2 the next two? I sit in the former camp personally, so Guard for me.

I think Kick is too large an investment for six games where you only have 5-8 skills to assign. I don’t find it to be essential in 1/3 games as you state above, I find it to be a nice to have skill all of the time and a game changer here and there. The iterative 'soft' cost each new useful Lineman skill brings decreases as TV increases; once a couple have got Wrestle or Block or whatever, Kick as a second skill becomes a decent long term investment that feels less expensive (you can think of it as a percentage of total TV). I think people have forgotten that placing a kick-off more repeatably has more uses than negating Bad Kick – when that was a thing in LRB4 the forum advice was to take Kick right away after Sure Hands and a DP. Now because of the culture of hardcore TV management and the lack of Bad Kick, I think too many overlook what is still a useful skill.

All of those 'pro's listed, I still think Kick is too much of an investment here. Not everyone thinks so; I sat down to play my first ever Eurobowl game against a Spaniard who had taken Kick. On a Wood Elf team with three skills to use, a Wardancer was unskilled! I think that’s bananas. Yes – a short kickoff is nice if you roll Blitz! Yes, it’s nice to put it deep and avoid touchbacks against slow, grindy teams, especially if you’ve been forced to score quickly and you want Orcs to go the length of the field. But Blitz! with Skaven is going to be devastating anyway (5/8 times it’s going no further than 6 squares deep into the opposing half, bounce / TB accepted), and Orcs are always going to struggle to go quickly. A skill you can potentially use 16 times (or threaten to use 16 times) is just an all-around more sensible investment than one you hope to only have to use once or twice. Plus – Linerats die pretty quickly and easily. You aren’t going to protect your kicker over Gutters or SV, so he might well be dead by the time he has a chance to shine! Wink
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 24, 2017 - 14:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Well you could give kick to a gutter runner in this case...

_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.

Oscar Wilde
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 24, 2017 - 14:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Of course you could. But don't. Wink That last sentence carried over from the remainder of the post somewhat; if you're stuck on Kick in this environment, you're right that a Gutter is the right place.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 24, 2017 - 15:15 Reply with quote Back to top

PG - basically kick gains value in games the more KO events you expect to roll, and therefore in a set-game environment, and in games you absolutely expect to play for 1-0/2-1 (due to res nature meaning you don't ever have any question about holding off), there's little reason to expect it to be big value to the extent it pushes away a core pick, yeah?

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 24, 2017 - 15:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Sort of, but I think my summary would be more global than that. I don't expect to kick off any more or less in progression than resurrection, so I don't see that particular distinction, myself.

Here, you are playing a small number of games (and will kick off a small number of times) with a team featuring a small number of skills. Maximise your picks and ensure everything is useful in as many circumstances as possible, don't gamble a relatively low frequency situation will arrive on that weekend and pick a nice skill that's particularly ace when that situation arises. Kick is better on a dude that's going to last (you'd hope) a while and add cumulative value over time in an environment where you have a bunch of skills covering the 'core' bases (often, your kicker isn't adding too much to that core). Here, you want guaranteed bang for your limited buck.

Anyway. More than enough from me, other opinions are available!
Cerberus85



Joined: May 06, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2017 - 12:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Gents,

Thank you all for replying and providing very useful insight, I've got a lot of thinking to do.

This tournement has been postponed due to work and family commitments by several coaches (including me unfortunatly). But hopefully it'll be reset in the near future.

Thanks again for your replies!
Cerberus85



Joined: May 06, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2017 - 12:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Morning!

So rather fortunately we were able to play the tournament this weekend just gone. Tournament rules were no change to OP. There were eight teams broken into two groups of four; winner of each group played in the final, 2nd in each group played for 3rd and 4th place, 3rd in the group teams played for 5th & 6th place whilst the bottom two teams played for 7th & 8th place respectively.

Taking Purplegoo's advice I went with the following team selection:

Bad Bay Packmasters
Rat Ogre - Block, Break Tackle
Storm Vermin - Guard
Storm Vermin - Guard
Gutter Runner - Wrestle
Gutter Runner - Block
Gutter Runner
Gutter Runner
Thrower - Leader
4 x Line Rats
2 x RR
1 x Apothecary

Group 1 - Skaven (me), Humans, Orcs, Goblins
Group 2 - Dwarves, Humans, Orcs, Undead

Game 1: Bad Bay Packamsters vs Altdorf Black Knights

A slew of bad luck plagued the humans. Despite winning the toss and electing to receive they turned the ball over numerous times allowing me to go into the half with a comfortable 2-0 lead. 2nd Half saw a quick score by the Packmasters before the Black Knights finally remembered how to hit and foul. Three nasty turns saw me unable to prevent the score due to having two players left.
Final Score 3-1 Packmasters

Game 2: Bad Bay Packmasters vs Da Bigtoof Bruisaz

Yeah the least said about the first half the better. Nothing the rats did was effective, from double skulls to snake eyed dodges it was a fiasco. Only a flukey 1TTD saw me lucky enough to go into the break 1-1. A drawn out second half saw the Packmasters get the go-ahead TD on turn 4. However a failed quick pass from the orcs saw the rats able to swarm the ball. Despite the orcs coming up with it (and the rats leaving the pitch every time there was a stiff breeze) they ran out of time to get the tying TD.
Final Score: 2-1 Packmasters

Game 3: Bad Bay Packmasters vs Cheaterz un Beaterz

In complete contrast to game 2 everything went well. A quick offensive TD saw all the secret weapons banned and the goblin head coach sent to the stands. Boneripper (Rat Ogre) was unstoppable injuring 5 goblins alone and KOing a troll for the entire game.
Final Score 4-0 Packmasters

After the group stages things looked like this:

Group 1
Skaven W3, D0, L0
Humans W2, D0, L1
Orcs W1, D0, L2
Goblins W0, D0, L3

Group 2
Dwarves W3, D0, L0
Undead W1, D1, L1 - 2nd place awarded by TD difference
Orcs W1, D1, L1
Humans W0, D0, L3

Final: Bad Bay Packmasters vs Unbreakable Shields

So this match was a disaster. Boneripper killed himself on a double skull blitz Crying or Very sad and what followed was a complete disintegration of the Packmasters. The dwarves went into the half 0-1 up and in the second half I could only muster 5 players; 1 x Storm Vermin and 4 x line rats.....Oddly enough it didn't go too well! Laughing
Final Score 0-2 Shields

So final placements were as follows:
1st - Dwarves
2nd - Skaven
3rd - Undead
4th - Humans
5th - Orcs
6th - Orcs
7th - Goblins
8th - Humans

I had a blast on Friday night and so did everyone else by all accounts. I was very happy with the team setup, I toyed with claw and Juggs for Boneripper but the freedom of BT combined with the more useful Block worked better in the end. I think the team misses a heavy hitter as the bash teams owned me and a killer Blitzer striking from and retreating into cover could have made them pay more on occasion but that's something to look at another time. Oh and I still hate dwarves..... Laughing

Thanks again to everyone on here who contributed to the team discussion and setup!
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 14, 2017 - 13:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Looks like you had a good time and did well, congrats! Thanks for the write up. Smile
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