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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 18, 2017 - 20:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Tripleskull wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
But if I can consistently beat PeteW 3-0 game after game...


Well guess what. You can't. And your coaching skills are not even the problem here because it can't be done because PeteW would beat you most of the time if you tried. Even if you where an elite coach.


thanks for agreeing with me that winning 3-0 would take more skill than barely winning 2-1.

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Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
Naama



Joined: Jun 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 12:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
Tripleskull wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
But if I can consistently beat PeteW 3-0 game after game...


Well guess what. You can't. And your coaching skills are not even the problem here because it can't be done because PeteW would beat you most of the time if you tried. Even if you where an elite coach.


thanks for agreeing with me that winning 3-0 would take more skill than barely winning 2-1.


Risk and luck do not translate straight into skill though, and i agree with Trippleskull that 3-0 doesn't mean you are a better coach than If you ended The game 2-1.

What i can get behind though, is that you'd get rewarded more for taking risks and gambling. That would steer some coaches to play a more dynamic game, instead of a static slow grind.

I mean in my opinion CR is more than just coaching skill, though skill plays The major role here. It's also luck and the right matchups.

I mean i'm not The highest rated coach, but luck and an open mind to gambling has taken me up there with The greats a couple of times.
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 13:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
Tripleskull wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
But if I can consistently beat PeteW 3-0 game after game...


Well guess what. You can't. And your coaching skills are not even the problem here because it can't be done because PeteW would beat you most of the time if you tried. Even if you where an elite coach.


thanks for agreeing with me that winning 3-0 would take more skill than barely winning 2-1.


It would not take more skill it would take more willingness to unnecessary risks. That is the opposite of skill.
Taking the hard road does not make you a better coach. Taking the easiest road available at any time seems like a pretty good estimation to a description of skill. There is absolutely no reason to reward people that take big risks if you want to measure skill. But you could of cause measure all kinds of other things with any given ranking.

Your answers show that you don't know or don't understand competitive blood bowl at a high level.
easilyamused



Joined: Jun 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 13:56
FUMBBL Staff
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Tripleskull wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
Tripleskull wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
But if I can consistently beat PeteW 3-0 game after game...


Well guess what. You can't. And your coaching skills are not even the problem here because it can't be done because PeteW would beat you most of the time if you tried. Even if you where an elite coach.


thanks for agreeing with me that winning 3-0 would take more skill than barely winning 2-1.


It would not take more skill it would take more willingness to unnecessary risks. That is the opposite of skill.
Taking the hard road does not make you a better coach. Taking the easiest road available at any time seems like a pretty good estimation to a description of skill. There is absolutely no reason to reward people that take big risks if you want to measure skill. But you could of cause measure all kinds of other things with any given ranking.

Your answers show that you don't know or don't understand competitive blood bowl at a high level.


So if someone is confident in their ability to be able to turnover the ball on defence they are not a good coach and just lucky?

Some teams are built for good defence, why not take advantage of that?

And some coaches play defence very aggressively, doesn't mean they are not as good as those who just sit one square back to try and halt a drive.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 14:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Even a coach very confident in his ability to defend should always consider that some things are beyond coach's skill, for example Kick Off Events and armour/injury rolls.
I can be good at defence, but if my leaping ball sacker is hit by a rock and injured or my players are knocked out with the LOS blocks block or I suffer a Pitch Invasion suddenly I can't defend anymore so well.
Coach's skill means taking risks when needed or refraining from taking risks if it's not needed to win, not just rolling dice whenever you can to have a high score at all costs.
It's not that a skilled coach could not score and try to defend rather than stalling, but a skilled coach will simply avoid it to reduce to 0 the randomness inherent to dice rolls beyond his control.

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Last edited by MattDakka on Oct 19, 2017 - 14:58; edited 1 time in total
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 14:31 Reply with quote Back to top

easilyamused wrote:

So if someone is confident in their ability to be able to turnover the ball on defence they are not a good coach and just lucky?

Some teams are built for good defence, why not take advantage of that?

And some coaches play defence very aggressively, doesn't mean they are not as good as those who just sit one square back to try and halt a drive.


The only race that is so much better on D# than O# that you should more or less score when given the chance is vampire - and not even then is it a good strategy given a good chance to stall.

There is no such thing as a lucky or unlucky coach but there are risk willing coaches and less risk willing coaches. Knowing when to take risks is a very big part of being a skilled player.

Say you have a 1-0 lead and you can walk it in giving your opponent two turn to score twice. Sounds reasonable. But when OTS and rolls a blitz or riot you might not be so happy with there situation. If you could have stalled with close to zero risk.

Sitting back one square each turn is not what good D# and a rational strategy is about.
DukeTyrion



Joined: Feb 18, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 14:40 Reply with quote Back to top

I am struggling to understand the difference between combined rankings and [b] vs [R] rankings.

As an example, Dark Elves and Norse;

Dark Elves [B] Legend 169.74
Dark Elves [R] Legend 173.68
Dark Elves [Combines] Star 151.95

Norse [B] Legend 166.65
Norse [R] Legend 170.59
Norse [Combined] Star 151.50
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 16:02
FUMBBL Staff
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The different rating types are independent in the mathematical sense. That's why.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 17:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Tripleskull,

Competitive bloodbowl often uses win/lose record to determine seeding for the playoffs. If there is a tie, generally Head-to-head is used...if still a tie...TD differential is often used.

If scoring more TDs displays less skill...why is TD differential a factor in determining playoff rank?

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Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 18:08 Reply with quote Back to top

There's some elegance in arguing that BB is more than probability and math in a thread about math and probability.

An important reminder that BB doesn't reduce to CR, otherwise that's what everyone would think.

***

Duke wrote:
combined rankings and [b] vs [R] rankings


It took me a while to realize that when C's referring to "independent" measures, he really means it.

B ratings are obtained by calculating the CR ratings of both coaches using their B ratings.

R ratings are obtained by calculating the CR ratings of both coaches using their R ratings.

Combined ratings are obtained by calculating the CR ratings of both coaches using their combined ratings.

In chat, C told me (correct me if I'm wrong, C) that the racial ratings are obtained by calculating the CR ratings of the racial CR of the target coach against the division CR of the opponent (B or R), and vice versa.

It looks prosaic, but it simplifies computations compared to making all the ratings interdependent.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 18:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:

If scoring more TDs displays less skill...why is TD differential a factor in determining playoff rank?


Because someone has to win. If that is equal they'll probably toss a coin. That doesn't imply more skill either.

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 19:17 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Arktoris wrote:

If scoring more TDs displays less skill...why is TD differential a factor in determining playoff rank?


Because someone has to win. If that is equal they'll probably toss a coin. That doesn't imply more skill either.


by that rationale, 50% of all leagues would just as easily take the team with the lower TD differential to be seated higher.

how many leagues do you know (Bloodbowl or any sport) do this?

If the answer is none, then this is checkmate. Debate over.

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Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 19:20 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
There's some elegance in arguing that BB is more than probability and math


totally agree.

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Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 19:33 Reply with quote Back to top

@Christer
Not sure if this is available already but if not, $10 donation if you could please provide match results in a csv, html, etc format
Showing division, coaches, CR, races, team values, TDs scored
Time range: since BB2016 rules came in and piling on was removed, up until latest results


Last edited by Sp00keh on Oct 19, 2017 - 21:05; edited 1 time in total
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 19, 2017 - 20:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
koadah wrote:
Arktoris wrote:

If scoring more TDs displays less skill...why is TD differential a factor in determining playoff rank?


Because someone has to win. If that is equal they'll probably toss a coin. That doesn't imply more skill either.


by that rationale, 50% of all leagues would just as easily take the team with the lower TD differential to be seated higher.

how many leagues do you know (Bloodbowl or any sport) do this?

If the answer is none, then this is checkmate. Debate over.


You are surely an epic display of arrogance, ignorance and delusion. I will not persist in trying to convince you of what is obvious to anyone who understands what is going on at the top tables.
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