67 coaches online • Server time: 23:34
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Waikikamukau Festiva...goto Post is multiple block wo...goto Post Advice on a new team
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
shalin



Joined: Jul 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2017 - 12:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello there,

My local TT club is starting a new season in a couple of months and I'm wondering about changing teams. I've been playing humans with little success in a bash heavy environment. I think I want to play a higher ag team.

Dark elves look attractive; ag4, mainly av8 and importantly a bit of variety in their skills.

So I find myself considering the following line-up.

1 witch elf - 110
3 blitzers - 300
7 line elves - 490
1 re-roll - 50
='s 950

So here's the questions -
4th blitzers +30
then 20 for either an assassin or 2 runners.

Would it be crazy to not get the 4th blitzer and play with both runners and an assassin? In part I'm thinking about having the biggest variety of positionals.
How much does the league composition effect the usefulness of the assassin? I'm guessing a lot, in that if it's all av9 don't bother, but if there's loads of av7 then they're great. Is it as simple as that?

Also I wonder about trying to level one of the runners in the first game and getting leader to get a 2nd re-roll. Which would prompt me to take both runners in the starting line-up. Is it worth trying to do that, is that a waste of a skill? Given how expensive the players are presumably it would take ages to get a bench and then save up for a RR.

Any thoughts appreciated.


Last edited by shalin on Nov 23, 2017 - 13:08; edited 1 time in total
eldritchfox



Joined: Mar 24, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2017 - 13:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Take a look here for some suggested starting rosters. 1 starting rr is probably a bad idea.
Gartch



Joined: Sep 07, 2012

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2017 - 13:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi shalin,

I would not say "crazy" Wink but clearly not optimal.
1RR is not enough because 2RR is already not enough actually, but if you want at least 4 positionals, you need to have only 2 RR at the beginning.

That being said you may want to try to play with 1 RR (or even 0) as a practice, to train to face situations with 1 or 0 RR remaining, but you will win less often.

About the positionnals:
Witch and blitzers are really better than runners and assasins, actually there are even DE coaches who never buy the latter two.
And when you say starting with 2 runners and 1 assassin, not only it's not optimal at short term (but maybe your reasoning is: at long term I will be able to buy all positionals faster), but at long term you will face a problem when kicking: you have to put 3 players on los
4 blitzers+2 witchs+2 runners+ 1 assassin=9 players, so you have only 2 linemen for the los, you have to put a positionnal on los, which is not really great (that's an understatement).
Now you can play with 1 assassin and 2 runners for the fun, but clearly once again it's not optimal, and you will win less often.

About assassin usefulness: even if you face av7 they are not "great", don't expect them to be game deciding factor alone (one problem is: if you blitz with them, if you don't pass armor (60% chance even vs av7) they are in contact with an opponent player)

about getting leader on a runner: if you have only 1 or 0 RR yes it's a good idea, and no I don't think it's a waste of a skill.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2017 - 14:09 Reply with quote Back to top

shalin wrote:

So here's the questions -
4th blitzers +30
then 20 for either an assassin or 2 runners.

Would it be crazy to not get the 4th blitzer and play with both runners and an assassin? In part I'm thinking about having the biggest variety of positionals.

Hi! I don't suggest to buy the Assassin, he's too expensive for what he brings and the statline is poor. I don't suggest to start with only 1 re-roll either, because they cost the double after team creation.
I suggest one of these two starting rosters:

- 4 Blitzers
- 1 Runner (if you don't like the Runner then buy a Lineman)
- 6 Linemen
- 2 rrs

- 3 Blitzers
- 1 Witch Elf
- 7 Linemen
- 2 rrs

With these 2 rosters you maximize the amount of blodger players at 6 SPPs, one of the greatest assets of Dark Elf teams is having 4-6 blodgers in a short time.

About taking Leader on the Runner: it's not a wasted skill for a starting team, the main reason to start with a Runner is to have a 3rd rr as soon as possible, that way you can use the first gold earned to buy the Apothecary. Later, when you can afford to buy the 3rd team re-roll you can play with or without a Runner, he's not a must-to-have positional.

Enjoy and good luck with your league experience!

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
shalin



Joined: Jul 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2017 - 17:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the quick replies.

I like the idea of practice games with less rerolls and seeing how I get on.
I was listening to the anything but a one podcast and they were talking about playing with only 1rr. That said I'm still fairly new and my luck isn't great, so maybe that's not such a good idea.

The problem is I like the idea of not just having blodge all the time, I do however get the fact that it is a really potent combo. So the assassin with 2 unusal skills is attractive from that point of view. I could take the view that I'll probably lose anyway, so why not try something different.

Gartch thanks for the point about positionals and los, I hadn't thought about it.

Good news is there's ages before the season starts so lots of time for practice/vacillation!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2017 - 18:02 Reply with quote Back to top

shalin wrote:
Thanks for the quick replies.

I like the idea of practice games with less rerolls and seeing how I get on.
I was listening to the anything but a one podcast and they were talking about playing with only 1rr. That said I'm still fairly new and my luck isn't great, so maybe that's not such a good idea.

Yes, it's a bad idea, especially if you are new to Dark Elves, don't listen to clueless podcast.
Luck doesn't exist, it's just probability taken personally.
shalin wrote:
So the assassin with 2 unusal skills is attractive from that point of view. I could take the view that I'll probably lose anyway, so why not try something different.

If you don't mind losing then asking for tips is quite pointless, play with the Assassin and have fun, but then don't cry if you lose games due to suboptimal roster.
I suggested the 2 best starting rosters from performance point of view.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
Gartch



Joined: Sep 07, 2012

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2017 - 12:37 Reply with quote Back to top

shalin wrote:
Thanks for the quick replies.

I like the idea of practice games with less rerolls and seeing how I get on.
I was listening to the anything but a one podcast and they were talking about playing with only 1rr. That said I'm still fairly new and my luck isn't great, so maybe that's not such a good idea.

The problem is I like the idea of not just having blodge all the time, I do however get the fact that it is a really potent combo. So the assassin with 2 unusal skills is attractive from that point of view. I could take the view that I'll probably lose anyway, so why not try something different.

If you are beginner indeed it's probably better to start with 2 RR, it will probably be hard enough Wink
Blodge is indeed very powerful, if you don't like it, maybe it's better to not play elf, that being said a few ideas to get out of blodge:
_taking wrestle, especially with witch, well wrodge is close to blodge, but it's slightly different
_taking kick on a lineman
_also don't forget you will roll double and stat increase, you won't have a lot of blodge anyway (except if your league is very long)

about assassin: if you are beginner it's probably better to not use him, it's hard to use him efficiently.

The 2 rosters suggested by MattDakka are the best ones for starting
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2017 - 12:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't mind having a runner as the ball carrier - can get leader quickly, particularly important in a short league if you are starting with few rerolls. Only 1 runner though.

_________________
I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.

Oscar Wilde
Stevar



Joined: Oct 31, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2017 - 13:26 Reply with quote Back to top

As you do not mention you want to win, but you want to play a higher AG team,
I will only say: take min 2 RR. If you want to win you'll need them, if you want to learn you 'll need to be able to try new things and then RR allow you to do so without stressing too much.
I personally like the witchelf option, frenzy is a skill very useful if used well. Can help to win can help to learn. If you are not afraid of the first matches, 2rr, 1 witch, 1 runner 2 blitz, lineman and 20k left for apoth early.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2017 - 14:00 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka is offering great advice, I'd listen to him.

Blitzers are awesome, MA 7 and blodge quickly. they also work great with tackle, able to catch most fast dodgy things. If one is lucky and rolls a double, then take MB and tackle ASAP.

Runners are good for keeping up with the blitzers, but their low AV is a worry. dump off is Ok, but really needs NoS to be effective. 2 is a massive luxury and keeping both safe, let alone finding a use for them, will be tough. Best use is as a ball carrier and for a cheap leader reroll.

Witches are fun and very very useful. But again low av means they are huge targets. Side step helps a lot, as well as helping them surf people off the side more safely. As has been said, wrodge here (wrestle+dodge) can be great as it goes well with Jump Up. Expensive though.

Assassins have their fans, but very few top players use them as they are very expensive for their impact and again come with low AV. Stab is only good vs low AV and for free hits that cant go wrong (but rarely work and leave them at risk).

1 reroll is at least 1 too few.

_________________
Barbarus hic ego sum quia non intelligor ulli
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone
Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2017 - 16:57 Reply with quote Back to top

I've tried pretty much most combinations of the DE roster including the assassins and runners. Unless your league coaches aren't aware of the statistical difference between breaking AV7 and AV8, combined with the lack of Block (compared to a blitzer), those assassins and runnners will be transported quickly to the KO/BH/SI/KI box.

I've had some success carrying 1 of those positionals as you can protect him/her, but the roster works better with all blitzers and 1 or 2 witches to taste.
shalin



Joined: Jul 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 26, 2017 - 17:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for all the additional comments. Of course I do want to win! I just wanted to get some more opinions on team composition and particularly the amount of rerolls that are needed. That extended to more opinions about assassins, I hear what people say - leave them at home!

What about the option stevar suggests. 2rr, 1 witch, 2 blitz, 1 runner and 20k left over. If the blitzers are a key part of the set-up starting with 2 is obviously less ideal. Is it worth the trade off to start with a runner, especially as a less experienced coach?
lethalkid



Joined: Jan 16, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 26, 2017 - 17:51 Reply with quote Back to top

My favorite build is 4 blitzers,runner and 6 linemen. 2 rerolls. Witch elves in my opinion are overrated anyways and will most likely get hurt when you cant start with an apo. Blitzers are the bread of the butter so maximize it. Runners are a good back up because of dump off. And at least 2 rerolls is very useful to win.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 26, 2017 - 17:55 Reply with quote Back to top

shalin wrote:

What about the option stevar suggests. 2rr, 1 witch, 2 blitz, 1 runner and 20k left over. If the blitzers are a key part of the set-up starting with 2 is obviously less ideal. Is it worth the trade off to start with a runner, especially as a less experienced coach?

No.
Start with one of the two rosters I suggested.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Powered by PNphpBB2 1.2 © 2003 PNphpBB Group
Credits