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Keothi



Joined: Jul 08, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 01:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Not going to say you're wrong - I guess I am questioning the importance of two Bulls both with Tackle... Every Dwarf Blocker comes with Block+Tackle, if one Bull has Tackle and you get a hobgoblin that can have DP then also develop wrestle + tackle do you really need to prioritise tackle early in the development of both bulls?

OK AG4, Block, Surehands agree up to here yes? Surely KoR or Stand Firm are more valuable on that Bull than another tackler on the team? If he's got the other skills you want on your primary BC and you roll another normal, sure tackle makes sense - what else are you going to give him?
Antithesisoftime



Joined: Aug 20, 2014

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 02:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Why do you want tackle on both bulls?
Bulls get depitched, and losing a tackle bull can significantly change how your team can attack on offense and defense.

Sometimes one bull is out of position to attack the ball, dorfs are too slow, and hobos lack the ST4 to get 2d.

There are any number of reasons to have tackle on both bulls, but especially on a ball carrying bull. As I said before, being able to attack and recover the ball in a single action can be game changing, especially if it's your primary ball carrier who is doing this.

Kick Off Return is an ok skill, but it fits better on players like Dwarf Runners, Orc Throwers, or Norse Throwers, and there are much better skills a bull can take to better carry his team.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 04:06 Reply with quote Back to top

If you took the first +AG, then taking the second is a no-brainer. The (very debatable) arguments for AG being bloat on bulls are based on the fact that by taking break-tackle you get a better (single) dodge anyway... but if you're AG4, that's no longer true. You now have an av9 thick skull, st4 Elf who can move 9 squares if need be.


@Keothi: if you take kick off return on a bull you need fired into the sun.

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DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 04:11 Reply with quote Back to top

LittleOrc wrote:
Sorry if this is bad, but a AG 4 bull sounds great. I am just confused. Kaintxu, who wrote this joined today ( yesterday ) March 13, and he has no teams and played no games. AG 4 bulls are great and I would love to have one, but a bloater would probably go kill it. So do people make new accounts to make new posts to ask questions? I am confused.


A lot of people who play BBII come here for advice. Could be the reason.

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Keothi



Joined: Jul 08, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 04:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I've never coached a CD team - and the best way to learn is to ask "dumb questions" and or make visible ideas on tactics, skill choices etc. It stimulates debate.

Arrested Development - part of what I dislike about the Forums is when new(-er) coaches comment or ask questions, they get flamed by the armchair critics. You can get your point across without belittling the coach who dared to comment or ask a question. I respect any coach who has the experience and can validate their proposed tactic, skill choice or reasoning for whatever they post... For example, taking tackle on both bulls. Antithesisoftime responded and I think his reasoning makes sense. Skill latency/depth with your high movement hitters and ball carriers makes sense. I wonder though, does it work the other way? Should you give both Bulls Sure Hands?

If I ever play a CD team and develop the team and players, these conversations and the Strategy section of FUMBBL will certainly be used to weigh up my choices.
Antithesisoftime



Joined: Aug 20, 2014

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 04:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Keothi wrote:
Antithesisoftime responded and I think his reasoning makes sense.
Her, for future reference.
No offense taken, I know none was meant
Keothi



Joined: Jul 08, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 04:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Appreciate the correction AoT Smile The Avatar Pic is gender-neutral as is the name.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 04:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Antithesisoftime wrote:

Kick Off Return is an ok skill, but it fits better on players like Dwarf Runners, Orc Throwers, or Norse Throwers, and there are much better skills a bull can take to better carry his team.


I so so soooo want to reply to this. But I won't.

Maybe it's just me though, but was anyone flaming anyone in this thread? I guess AD sort of made something which sounded insulting, but meh, he's not wrong either...

Kick off return is a pretty bad skill generally, it fits on some players who run out of useful skills quickly as they have only G/P access usually.

It's really pointless on players who are already MA6 though, they can cover to the sidelines without gfi if they position in the middle. Dwarf runners only take it because if they don't roll doubles they basically run out of skills to take by their 3rd skill.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 04:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Keothi wrote:
I've never coached a CD team - and the best way to learn is to ask "dumb questions" and or make visible ideas on tactics, skill choices etc. It stimulates debate.

Arrested Development - part of what I dislike about the Forums is when new(-er) coaches comment or ask questions, they get flamed by the armchair critics. You can get your point across without belittling the coach who dared to comment or ask a question. I respect any coach who has the experience and can validate their proposed tactic, skill choice or reasoning for whatever they post... For example, taking tackle on both bulls. Antithesisoftime responded and I think his reasoning makes sense. Skill latency/depth with your high movement hitters and ball carriers makes sense. I wonder though, does it work the other way? Should you give both Bulls Sure Hands?

If I ever play a CD team and develop the team and players, these conversations and the Strategy section of FUMBBL will certainly be used to weigh up my choices.



Good lord man, it was supposed to be a humourous aside. Don't you think I'd have made things a lot more personal if i wanted to insult you? "Fired into the sun" is an absolutely ridiculous premise.

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Keothi



Joined: Jul 08, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 04:56 Reply with quote Back to top

IMO criticising someone's comment on a skill choice, tactic or strategy without backing up your patronising comment of "taking skill choice X means you should be fired into the sun" is flaming/insulting. You insinuate it's a stupid choice but I learn nothing other than you think I'm dumb. Educate me. WHY is it such a crap skill choice?

I have it as a skill for my MA6 Orc Thrower (League Team) and it helps significantly for opportunities to TTM OR chainpush a 1TTD; it's also saved me from losing the ball on a Blitz result on more than one occasion. So I'm not convinced that it's a poor skill choice for your main baller when the rest of your team is basically MA4.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 05:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok. Because you're now derailing the thread over this:

Your orc thrower lacks S access and has a desolate skill progression beyond taking KoR, Pass, Accurate, Block etc. He's in the "i'm taking KoR because there's a dearth of options" camp.

A Bull is really, really far from that - you have S and G access and people would actually argue that it's really hard to fit everything you'd want on a bull anyway: block, break tackle, tackle, mb/guard, (surehands), (dodge), stand firm? frenzy? stats?... The bull is also backed up by another bull, and likely 3 hobgoblins - this in total gives greater pitch coverage than your orcs (not basically ma4 at all).

Put simply, it really isn't worth the opportunity cost.



Lastly: I did not call you dumb, not did I insinuate anything about the intelligence of the choice actually, I merely said "needs fired into the sun". I have no idea why you've assumed so much from what supposed to be a funny comment.

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Keothi



Joined: Jul 08, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 05:17 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:


@Keothi: if you take kick off return on a bull you need fired into the sun.


No. Don't laugh it off now as a joke and not personal. We're all people on here and I'd rather call out a negative comment than let it slide. I keep my own comments on the game and on the topic, addressing what is either posted or asked. I don't make it personal, nor do I belittle anyone's opinion. I might vigorously debate a point of view if it's different from mine. And that's fine.

But it is clear as crystal to me AD. Comment is aimed at me specifically and you think if I chose KoR on a Bull then it's a wasted skill choice and I should be fired into the sun. How is that not personal and not insulting? Secondly, it's not derailing a thread - it's asking clarification on a skill choice for a bull centaur that you chose to rubbish.

I do appreciate you actually replying though and backing up your reasoning on why KoR is not any good for a Bull. I don't think it's rubbish, but with all the roles that a Bull needs to fill for the team I can see why KoR is a sub optimal skill choice.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 05:30 Reply with quote Back to top

You're projecting. You also threw out opinions without backing them up and then demanded I backup an equally valid opinion (basically, "don't take kick off return"), when you hadn't posited your own reasoning for taking it.

I'm not getting into this any further with you, except to say you are now putting your own thought into my text and inferring your own implications from them. HOW DARE YOU tell me what I meant to say?

That was a general "you", not a personal you, and I will not go into this any further with someone who is attempting to force not only their views of how communication should proceed on a topic, but also their own views of the very text others have written.

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Keothi



Joined: Jul 08, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 05:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Keothi wrote:
PC thanks.

AG4 Block Bull
Singles Sure Hands - tick
Second normal roll - I wouldn't waste tackle on a ball carrier, place that on the blodge Bull. KoR definitely appeals as getting the bull and ball into a cage ASAP is paramount with your MA4 Blockers for caging. Stand Firm and Fend on normals.
first double - dodge tick.


Surely this qualifies as explaining my own reasoning on KoR as a skill choice vs your claim of throwing out assertions but not backing them up?

With regard to the rest of your post; You addressed a comment at me. I responded. I made zero demands, nor did I project. If you aim a comment directly at an individual, your comment is always going to be interpreted by that individual. Your written intent could be different to how it is received. I'm struggling to stand back and see how your comment can be translated to mean anything other than; choosing KoR is a stupid choice for a Bull. But by all means, explain what you really meant. I'll listen. But if you deny that it was a personal comment, you are wrong on logical grounds as it was addressed individually/personally. It was not a "general" comment.

By all means act outraged and make claims of me thrusting intentions onto you. The internet is great for people to act like the person reading on a Forum isn't a person. I'm not sure why we do this? Just because it's on a screen doesn't remove the person behind the text. It actually doesn't take much to take a step back and ask yourself "If I was holding this conversation to an interested stranger of the game at a Tourney and he said "I'm thinking KoR might be a good skill for my Bull Centaur" would you tell him/her that they should be fired into the sun? Or maybe would you look at them and say essentially what you said when you justified why Bulls have better skills to spend their advancement on? That in essence is what I'm trying to get across on flaming/new-er coaches who come onto the forums.
Maybe you're more experienced than I am at this game. If so, great I want some of that wisdom and knowledge. Do I want to get belittled in the process? Heck no. So back the truck down and consider when you post a throw-away comment on a forum that the person seeking knowledge doesn't want or need condescending remarks. They want to see a good debate on the pros and cons of certain decisions and then make up their own mind on what they have read after seeing it from several angles.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 05:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Man, if you take things too seriously you should be fired into the sun.
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