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Keothi



Joined: Jul 08, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 06:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Why can't it be taken seriously? I want to be able to hop onto the forums and post and then have other coaches offer their own 2 cents worth, but keep it about the game and back up their own thoughts with reasons/evidence. If they disagree on tactical grounds/reasons on anything I've put forward I'll happily read it, maybe learn something and if I need to clarify anything, I'll respond.

I've been reading these forum threads for months and I can see that there is an active core of coaches who contribute to these threads and also shoot down people with less knowledge of the game. Maybe it's not even a conscious thing, it's people who have superior knowledge and then act superior in front of those who are learning. Why do you think the forums have a core of certain coaches and then very few new coaches joining in on the forums? It's daunting to step into the forums and ask questions or post comments when you get flamed/shot down; this reaction has been brewing for a while as it's a cumulative issue and I finally decided to stand up and say "Hey, I don't appreciate that kind of culture." Such is always the way when someone finally has enough of being bullied or harassed or constantly shot down by others.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 06:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Man, now i want to be fired into the sun.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 06:29 Reply with quote Back to top

You had a lolpinion that people shot down. Why arent you as skeptical of your own opinions if youre here to learn? Be receptive that you might have a contrary opinion that will be smoked. Can people be nicer about it? Sure. Its easier to be nice if you arent inherently skeptical of orthodox opinions.
Stonetroll



Joined: Jun 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 07:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Just git gud, how hard is that?
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 09:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I really love the idea of tackle on ballcarriers. That way they double down as safeties / sweepers. I dont like spamming tackle and hand out to a lot of players. I give tackle to dedicated killers/sackers/ballers instead. The killer needs it, sacker needs it, and the baller is more mobile than any other player, so the availability of tackle is increased by a lot, cause a fast agile tackler can cover huge part of the pitch.

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Joost



Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 09:39 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
I really love the idea of tackle on ballcarriers. That way they double down as safeties / sweepers. I dont like spamming tackle and hand out to a lot of players. I give tackle to dedicated killers/sackers/ballers instead. The killer needs it, sacker needs it, and the baller is more mobile than any other player, so the availability of tackle is increased by a lot, cause a fast agile tackler can cover huge part of the pitch.


Seconded. I think of creates Nice synergies, since you only have the ball 1 half and now your dedicated carrier can leverage his / her mobility also in the time spent defending. Usually a lot of TV goes into a dedicated carrier, so it makes sense to me to make that TV productive for the full game.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 09:54 Reply with quote Back to top

It is also occasionally useful for blitzing free of those nasty Diving Tackle Side Step markers.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 10:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
It is also occasionally useful for blitzing free of those nasty Diving Tackle Side Step markers.

Excellent point. Also provides the option to just stay cool, and block away that DT/SS player, and the killer can blitz the juicy target.

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Guardikai



Joined: Jun 23, 2009

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 12:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Play on hard mode. Turn down Nuffle's gift and take pass block. Yeeeees

*Sass*
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 14:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Keothi wrote:

Surely this qualifies as explaining my own reasoning on KoR as a skill choice vs your claim of throwing out assertions but not backing them up?.


Not really. It is not far from saying that Catch is good if you want to catch things. This does not justify investing in that skill at all.

Asking rhetorical questions can backfire when we can respond to them.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 20:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Keothi, if you want a more in depth answer as to why KoR is folly for a Bull Centaur here it is:

How do you evaluate utility in this game?

This is a fundamental question you need to answer before you can justify taking KoR on a Bull. I can do my analysis without your answer and here it goes:

How often can you use KoR? Twice per game max, once if you're doing a good job on defense. If you receive a kickoff more than twice per game chances are you aren't in a good game state, especially for cdorks.

How often can you use other skills that are vying for that slot? Tackle - you can use every turn if you use that Bull to blitz. Chances are that even if you don't designate such a stud to blitz every turn depending on situation you will still use it more than twice per game, passively or actively. The utilization rate of other skills to KoR is obvious.

How does the inherent abilities of an Bull work with Tackle vs. KoR?

In general, the orthodox position on KoR is you put it on players that are slow and have complimentary players that are also slow and finally players that don't have a lot of skill options. Typically you'll see it on Dorf Runners, Orc Throwers, Khemri Thro-ras, Human Throwers. In each of these cases they are AG3 or less, MA6 or less, two skill categories (General and Passing) to choose from and inherent Sure Hands.

But let us consider the inherentness of a Bull - Functional MA8 Blitzes with best odds risk taking. ST4. Strength and General Access. Even if you took skills to make your Bull the primary carrier, the inherent attributes suggest that they could be so much more and leverage so much of their inherent abilities in ways that other usual suspects for KoR don't have.

If you had a ST4 Wardancer, would you take Surehands and Kick-off Return? Or a ST4 Werewolf? These are your like comparisons to a Bull, not throwers with surehands inherent. The inherent attributes of a Bull scream no assist blitzer against ST3 mooks. The ability to blitz without an assist seems small but it frees up your other mens to engage the opponent and occupy pitch space without suffering an unforeseen opportunity cost.

Just as a small example, when blitzing with a ST3 player and providing an assist, if you double both down a player with block and don't reroll, you now have 2 players occupied by one opponent player - the blitzer and assister. Analogous situation is blitzing a blodger with SS. A failed block is a failed block and if you have to provide an assist it can lead to counter moves that put two of your players down on the pitch. ST4 with Tackle eliminates some of the downside of failed blocks and actually ups the chances of a successful block (and success is solely the realm of knockdowns here).

FWIW, I have never built Bulls this way and prefer to use them as mobile anchors with Block Guard and Stand Firm but part of why it works is because I actualize them in those roles and don't try to make them what they aren't. I think ST4 Stand Firm is aces mostly based on the concept illustrated above - ST4 Standfirm requires specific attention and consumes opponent resources that free up your other players to seize upon the opponent. But part of being a pupil of this game is recognizing when you have a heterodox opinion and acknowledging the upsides and downsides of those opinions.

Another component is looking at the skills themselves in function - Tackle acts as a passive and active counter to Dodge - no more no less. Kick off Return allows 3 squares of movement solely on a kick off. If the sole aim is to get the Bull into a cage (which in itself is a deterministic and inflexible rote way of playing) there are other ways to accomplish this through actual board movement of 10 other players on offense at no TV cost. This is a vital pearl of wisdom that many coaches overlook - you can accomplish tactical imperatives without relying on skills to facilitate it but it takes time and experience to know how to do that. Skills can be shortcuts to better positioning, especially those that require a specific counter to deal with like SS and Standfirm but skills like that can also be leveraged into opportunities that less savvy coaches won't be able to anticipate or deal with adequately.

Finally, the one component that you overlooked is that you only have 6 skills max to select for each player. We haven't had a good tier discussion in a while (might be a categorical impossibility at this point to have a 'good' discussion about it) but in general here are the money skills:

Block, Dodge, Guard, Tackle, Mighty Blow, Juggernaut, Frenzy, Side Step, Stand Firm

and these are utility or complimentary skills:

Wrestle, Leap, Surehands, Kick, Dirty Player, Diving Tackle, Shadowing, Jump Up, Fend, Dauntless and Strip Ball. They will augment the roles of specific players to allow them to do what they do better OR they are skills that lowly linos and throwers with limited skill access fall into when lacking other options.

Using my rough rubric of utility (opportunity to use, function, access) KoR doesn't even sniff a place at the podium.

Okay, so now that I've run through why I think KoR is almost a useless sink I'll provide a specific contrary example where I think it provides good value but the parameters are different.

In a situation where you have 16 players and are at high TV and you have very specific offensive and defensive roles between throwers and linos, taking KoR on an elven thrower can make some amount of sense - simply lessening the burden of moves and potential GFIs needed to huck a ball to your OTTD player with best odds is valuable where the marginal cost to the team is minimal but the reward is better OTTD odds. Such a player on a 11 elf team, lacking in any sort of defensive ability or self protection is a liability. On a 16 player team where the role is to get the ball and huck it to the correct place and they don't take the field except on offense, it isn't a terrible option to tack KoR on at 76 SPP if you've taken Surehands, Accurate, +AG or Strong Arm.

But that is an edge case in a specific setup with a very concrete vision on team roles and maximizing situational odds to their best. You would almost never organically create these players at 1500 TV with 11 mens.
Azure



Joined: Jan 30, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 21:02 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212,

I did not read your response. It was too long and did not have a TLDR portion at the end. Any thread even a fourth as long as yours needs TLDR. However, I am 90% sure I agree with you even without reading it. And this thread was funny! Forums are great sometimes.

TLDR: Laugh - it is good for your health! Smile
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 21:49 Reply with quote Back to top

FIRE ALL MENZ into the sun.
ArrestedDevelopment is an extension cord.

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Keothi



Joined: Jul 08, 2013

Post   Posted: Mar 14, 2018 - 22:28 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Keothi, if you want a more in depth answer as to why KoR is folly for a Bull Centaur here it is:

How do you evaluate utility in this game?

This is a fundamental question you need to answer before you can justify taking KoR on a Bull. I can do my analysis without your answer and here it goes:

How often can you use KoR? Twice per game max, once if you're doing a good job on defense. If you receive a kickoff more than twice per game chances are you aren't in a good game state, especially for cdorks.

How often can you use other skills that are vying for that slot? Tackle - you can use every turn if you use that Bull to blitz. Chances are that even if you don't designate such a stud to blitz every turn depending on situation you will still use it more than twice per game, passively or actively. The utilization rate of other skills to KoR is obvious.

How does the inherent abilities of an Bull work with Tackle vs. KoR?

In general, the orthodox position on KoR is you put it on players that are slow and have complimentary players that are also slow and finally players that don't have a lot of skill options. Typically you'll see it on Dorf Runners, Orc Throwers, Khemri Thro-ras, Human Throwers. In each of these cases they are AG3 or less, MA6 or less, two skill categories (General and Passing) to choose from and inherent Sure Hands.

But let us consider the inherentness of a Bull - Functional MA8 Blitzes with best odds risk taking. ST4. Strength and General Access. Even if you took skills to make your Bull the primary carrier, the inherent attributes suggest that they could be so much more and leverage so much of their inherent abilities in ways that other usual suspects for KoR don't have.

If you had a ST4 Wardancer, would you take Surehands and Kick-off Return? Or a ST4 Werewolf? These are your like comparisons to a Bull, not throwers with surehands inherent. The inherent attributes of a Bull scream no assist blitzer against ST3 mooks. The ability to blitz without an assist seems small but it frees up your other mens to engage the opponent and occupy pitch space without suffering an unforeseen opportunity cost.

Just as a small example, when blitzing with a ST3 player and providing an assist, if you double both down a player with block and don't reroll, you now have 2 players occupied by one opponent player - the blitzer and assister. Analogous situation is blitzing a blodger with SS. A failed block is a failed block and if you have to provide an assist it can lead to counter moves that put two of your players down on the pitch. ST4 with Tackle eliminates some of the downside of failed blocks and actually ups the chances of a successful block (and success is solely the realm of knockdowns here).

FWIW, I have never built Bulls this way and prefer to use them as mobile anchors with Block Guard and Stand Firm but part of why it works is because I actualize them in those roles and don't try to make them what they aren't. I think ST4 Stand Firm is aces mostly based on the concept illustrated above - ST4 Standfirm requires specific attention and consumes opponent resources that free up your other players to seize upon the opponent. But part of being a pupil of this game is recognizing when you have a heterodox opinion and acknowledging the upsides and downsides of those opinions.

Another component is looking at the skills themselves in function - Tackle acts as a passive and active counter to Dodge - no more no less. Kick off Return allows 3 squares of movement solely on a kick off. If the sole aim is to get the Bull into a cage (which in itself is a deterministic and inflexible rote way of playing) there are other ways to accomplish this through actual board movement of 10 other players on offense at no TV cost. This is a vital pearl of wisdom that many coaches overlook - you can accomplish tactical imperatives without relying on skills to facilitate it but it takes time and experience to know how to do that. Skills can be shortcuts to better positioning, especially those that require a specific counter to deal with like SS and Standfirm but skills like that can also be leveraged into opportunities that less savvy coaches won't be able to anticipate or deal with adequately.

Finally, the one component that you overlooked is that you only have 6 skills max to select for each player. We haven't had a good tier discussion in a while (might be a categorical impossibility at this point to have a 'good' discussion about it) but in general here are the money skills:

Block, Dodge, Guard, Tackle, Mighty Blow, Juggernaut, Frenzy, Side Step, Stand Firm

and these are utility or complimentary skills:

Wrestle, Leap, Surehands, Kick, Dirty Player, Diving Tackle, Shadowing, Jump Up, Fend, Dauntless and Strip Ball. They will augment the roles of specific players to allow them to do what they do better OR they are skills that lowly linos and throwers with limited skill access fall into when lacking other options.

Using my rough rubric of utility (opportunity to use, function, access) KoR doesn't even sniff a place at the podium.

Okay, so now that I've run through why I think KoR is almost a useless sink I'll provide a specific contrary example where I think it provides good value but the parameters are different.

In a situation where you have 16 players and are at high TV and you have very specific offensive and defensive roles between throwers and linos, taking KoR on an elven thrower can make some amount of sense - simply lessening the burden of moves and potential GFIs needed to huck a ball to your OTTD player with best odds is valuable where the marginal cost to the team is minimal but the reward is better OTTD odds. Such a player on a 11 elf team, lacking in any sort of defensive ability or self protection is a liability. On a 16 player team where the role is to get the ball and huck it to the correct place and they don't take the field except on offense, it isn't a terrible option to tack KoR on at 76 SPP if you've taken Surehands, Accurate, +AG or Strong Arm.

But that is an edge case in a specific setup with a very concrete vision on team roles and maximizing situational odds to their best. You would almost never organically create these players at 1500 TV with 11 mens.


+1 to this and thank I learned a lot in the process.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Mar 15, 2018 - 00:02 Reply with quote Back to top

fire all mens into the sun

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