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Poll
What to do with the Slann Blitzer?
No changes needed, the skill access makes up for the price.
29%
 29%  [ 44 ]
Discount Blitzer Please.
26%
 26%  [ 39 ]
Exchange diving tackle or jump up for block.
11%
 11%  [ 17 ]
Stop Complaining.
32%
 32%  [ 49 ]
Total Votes : 149


Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 10:08 Reply with quote Back to top

How could anyone really?
They can't see if the team you are playing or the team you are playing against was dice banjoed.
Can't see if you are playing smart or dumb.
Can't see if you are Blocking when you should Dodge or GFI-ing when you should Pass.
Can't see when you are using the skills or how.

This isn't just about skills but the way that they are used in a holistic team concept.
And I don't care that you or other don't buy it. I know it works.
And I stood up for it and tried to explain it because I know that people LURK and LEARN in the forums.
And they learn things from ideas put forth and defended.
But more importantly they learn there is more than 1 way outside of the typical advice.
And they take bits and pieces of different ideas and create varied and special teams.
They don't just cookie cutter this game into some sort of chess with dice.

WHO in this thread is going to take your test seriously enough that it changes their mind?
I know (with evidence) that it works. Many others know (without evidence) that it doesn't.
YOU will take it seriously, maybe. But what evidence does it produce?

The WICHITA SHUFFLE can still work in basketball. OR CAN IT?
Who knows, if it is never actually used where anyone else can see it done?
Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 10:29
FUMBBL Staff
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Catalyst32 wrote:
WHO in this thread is going to take your test seriously enough that it changes their mind?


Me. I know Harad and he would be good to his word. TBH, I'm surprised he has entertained you this long.
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 10:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Aww shucks Throweck. Let's have a man hug.
cdassak



Joined: Oct 23, 2013

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 11:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Me too. And not just for the hug Wink
Harad will do his best to carry out this experiment objectively

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 11:07 Reply with quote Back to top

I admit taking Harad seriously!

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 11:14 Reply with quote Back to top

In answer to your question, people may consider me trustworthy and competent enough to produce a fair test.
As previously mentioned I could do it with transparency but then the test would be less fair in that someone would say 'ah but you got easier teams to play against with team x'. So I feel that either has drawbacks and I'd rather have a fairer test and ask people to trust me as I think that isn't a big ask given my character.
I think for a small sample (e.g. 25 games or so) it will produce the best evidence possible. Someone approaching it very scientifically with as fair test conditions as are really possible and also with a record which suggests that whilst they may not always make the optimal decision they are likely to produce. on average, upper decile or so, performance.
I agree that different skills need different decisions but having played a lot of different races and even rule sets I think it is relatively easy for someone with a certain level of ability to adapt their play style.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 11:15
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Yes, Slann Blitzers are too expensive.

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 11:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Who said anything about hugging you Cdassak? I know where you've been Wink
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 11:22 Reply with quote Back to top

I think an open, 1000 games testing on fummbl could be also skewed. If someone can play at the same level of slann, then must be a robot who cannot learn (thus cannot deduct any new finding either), or be a perfect slann player (in which case he just tells the best build, and that is it). If the tester is somewhere in between, then will inevitably improve his skills, thus improving the expected win% as the games progress.

All in all i am happy with the tabletop testing solution, i think that is less skewed than the obvious and feasible alternatives.

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Guardikai



Joined: Jun 23, 2009

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 12:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad - you have more patience than a Saint, and more scientific obsession than many professors I know. However, while I admire that I do think bg and others are right. Dodge > pro on Slann teams as a general skill. Both have their uses, but one offers a bit more reliability on key rolls. I think your time would be better spent doing almost anything else rather than playing yourself just to prove something all but one already know. I feel bad for you Sad especially with the person you're assisting in regards to this evidence being quite...

I feel like chucking in a "why not both?" On a key blitzer or catcher you'll want both! Pro helps on the leap or jump up block, dodge helps defensively and with movement (even vs heavy tackle teams it can be useful. Seeing a full tackle team is rare).

Anyhow, don't over do it please 0_o
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 13:32
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To save all this effort, all you really need to do is look at Catalyst's suggested team.

4 Blitzers - No Pro or Dodge on any of them
2 Catchers - 1 Pro 1 Dodge

....and that's it.
Sure there's loads of Pro on linemen, but that's irrelevant. Linefrogs can't take dodge anyway, only on a double, and whether a linefrog should take Dodge on a double is a totally different argument, and one I think most people would agree on. For a linefrog with no stat increases, Guard would be first double nearly always. If he's +Str then Mb, if he's +Ma or Ag then Dodge.

This isn't really a Dodge vs Pro discussion, it's just a discussion about the merits of Pro in general. I can see how, on a team with lots of leaping, Pro might be more useful than on most teams.

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 13:38 Reply with quote Back to top

lol
Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 13:56
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@Josh How come you have a FUMBBL staff tag but I don't?!

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 14:20 Reply with quote Back to top

As an aside, having Slann Linemen with 4 skills is optimistic (in the Box) and, even if they survive to the 4th skill, at that point having Strip Ball will be probably useless because they will be facing Sure Hands ball carriers.

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Guardikai



Joined: Jun 23, 2009

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 14:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Nailed it josh and matt Smile
With ag4 leap on the catchers and jump up on the blitzers both will want pro as only 1/6 chance of fail. With agility 4 on the catchers, and dodge being helpful defensively, both catchers and blitzers will want dodge.
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