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Poll
What to do with the Slann Blitzer?
No changes needed, the skill access makes up for the price.
29%
 29%  [ 44 ]
Discount Blitzer Please.
25%
 25%  [ 38 ]
Exchange diving tackle or jump up for block.
11%
 11%  [ 17 ]
Stop Complaining.
33%
 33%  [ 49 ]
Total Votes : 148


Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 14:58 Reply with quote Back to top

MJ - yes I totally agree that pro has increased utility on a slann team but less utility than say on vampires.
But as you say I don't think that is being debated. I think the argument is around whether a) avoiding dodge on all players (and as you point out this is mainly blitzers because we agree I think on guard on linefrogs on doubles) other than one catcher is a good plan and b) related to this, whether the additional tv is better distributed among other skills partly including the mentioned pro.
Before anyone else jumps on this, I recognize there are further subtleties but I think this is the heart of the debate.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 15:59
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Throweck wrote:
@Josh How come you have a FUMBBL staff tag but I don't?!


Because I'm better than you Razz

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 16:02 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
I admit taking Harad seriously!


There lies a big problem with the experimental setting. If H plays H, it gets as confusing as when Spiderman meets Spiderman, This may bias that result toward legendary play. This does not reproduce the fact that are playing on a site with players of various strength and experience. Different game goals. That R players decide to play against or not.

If we really are serious about being objective, then either we solve it from first principles, or H produces clinical trials conditions.

So I suggest that H either simulates everything in R (a stat programming language) or that he plays blindfolded.

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ben_awesome



Joined: May 11, 2016

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 17:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think you need to do this Harad, but if you want to and you want to stop Catalyst inferrring bias this could be a way to stop that.

Could you create the two teams in a league here then play them yourself using a 2nd account (with permission) and in that way not only are both teams available but the replays too and thereby any suggestion of bias can be removed through watching the replays?
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 19:39 Reply with quote Back to top

If he plays by himself at home tabletop he could film it to YouTube, some thing

Either way though I don't think you can ever say he played 100% maximal for team A or team B
There's always subjectivity as to what play was better. And the benefits of hindsight will give critics ammunition to discredit plays that failed even if they were probably a good idea

Sometimes you have to go for risks particularly with slann and it's easy to criticize other people's approach to risk


If you can perfectly simulate the game in R you would have basically built a blood bowl playing AI - for the sake of winning an argument on the internet against one guy


Can bb2 play ai Vs ai?
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 19:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Anyway here's a suggestion for comparison schemes if you wanted another option

Krox 4 blitzers 2 catchers 4 linemen 3 RR. Blitzers have tackle, wrestle, PRO
Played directly against:
Krox 4 blitzers 2 catchers 4 linemen 3 RR. Blitzers have tackle, wrestle, DODGE

It's a setup skewed to favour Pro, to give it a strong chance of success - If Pro isn't better in this situation, it definitely isn't better
Given enough dice rolled per turn, I could see Pro working out well
Thoughts?
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 20:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
Anyway here's a suggestion for comparison schemes if you wanted another option

Krox 4 blitzers 2 catchers 4 linemen 3 RR. Blitzers have tackle, wrestle, PRO
Played directly against:
Krox 4 blitzers 2 catchers 4 linemen 3 RR. Blitzers have tackle, wrestle, DODGE

It's a setup skewed to favour Pro, to give it a strong chance of success - If Pro isn't better in this situation, it definitely isn't better
Given enough dice rolled per turn, I could see Pro working out well
Thoughts?



Not bad idea. But also not my idea.

The "Pro" team would have Block, Tackle, Mighty Blow and Guard on the Blitzers... not Pro.
The advantage of not having Dodge on the Blitzers is the added HITTING POWER and more GUARD.

The advantage of Pro on the Linemen is having better in game play choices. (Plus, they often can't get better skills.)
1) It gives you a few guys to go to for those times when you might need to make multiple rolls with 1 guy (perhpas using BOTH Pro and the Team Reroll during that string of rolls).
2) It gives you a few guys who are more reliable or risky plays early in the turn (for example maybe a Block that if is gets the knock down will blow open a cage or screen or maybe to set up a crucial 2DB somebody is going to have to GFI twice).
3) It gives you guys who are still reliable to make late turn actions AFTER the Team Reroll is gone.

If the Pro isn't on the Linemen and the 1 Catcher it isn't where it is needed to play this way.

The 1 Catcher loading up on RR Skills is obviously there to be the guy you turn to (when you can) to make all of the crucial rolls.
He is a HUGE key to the strategy surrounding making rolls on the Ball because of is AG.
He is the only player that should always avoid contact in 1 way or another.
And because he has DODGE I do not Leap the him unless there is a great need to Leap... the other Catcher with Pro would handle that ideally.


Last edited by Catalyst32 on May 23, 2018 - 20:29; edited 1 time in total
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 20:26 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:
To save all this effort, all you really need to do is look at Catalyst's suggested team.

4 Blitzers - No Pro or Dodge on any of them
2 Catchers - 1 Pro 1 Dodge

....and that's it.
Sure there's loads of Pro on linemen, but that's irrelevant. Linefrogs can't take dodge anyway, only on a double, and whether a linefrog should take Dodge on a double is a totally different argument, and one I think most people would agree on. For a linefrog with no stat increases, Guard would be first double nearly always. If he's +Str then Mb, if he's +Ma or Ag then Dodge.

This isn't really a Dodge vs Pro discussion, it's just a discussion about the merits of Pro in general. I can see how, on a team with lots of leaping, Pro might be more useful than on most teams.



I'm glad to see that SOMEBODY more or less gets it.

But the Pro on the Linemen is relevant.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 20:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad wrote:
In answer to your question, people may consider me trustworthy and competent enough to produce a fair test.
As previously mentioned I could do it with transparency but then the test would be less fair in that someone would say 'ah but you got easier teams to play against with team x'. So I feel that either has drawbacks and I'd rather have a fairer test and ask people to trust me as I think that isn't a big ask given my character.
I think for a small sample (e.g. 25 games or so) it will produce the best evidence possible. Someone approaching it very scientifically with as fair test conditions as are really possible and also with a record which suggests that whilst they may not always make the optimal decision they are likely to produce. on average, upper decile or so, performance.
I agree that different skills need different decisions but having played a lot of different races and even rule sets I think it is relatively easy for someone with a certain level of ability to adapt their play style.



That's all fine and good. And I am not trying to talk you out of it. I'd love to see you give it a shot.


But... how can you honestly play BOTH teams?
You will know the exact strategy that each team is trying to accomplish.
There will be no way to trick yourself or surprise yourself.
How can you give your all to a strategy knowing you are also trying to counter that strategy?


How can you execute a feint attack to 1 side and then counter to the other on yourself?
YOU as the coach of team 1 will know exactly what team 2 is planning and would therefore be able to position yourself to thwart yourself over and over.

Doesn't it then come down to the luck of the dice?
Whose dice fails them 1st? Whose AV falls apart 1st?
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 21:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
If you can perfectly simulate the game in R you would have basically built a blood bowl playing AI - for the sake of winning an argument on the internet against one guy


Thank you for spelling out the joke, Captain OBVIOUS.

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 22:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Harad you can spend a lot of time doing the testing but Catalyst will dispute the result anyway. Thus annoying you..

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 22:08 Reply with quote Back to top

You could make up some field setups with some examples, like for cage breaking or just after, showing probabilities for the moves you would make on whether you have pro or dodge.

It seems usually when a ball is caged or in tackle zones you normally would have to leap one way and dodge the other or dodge both ways. You would usually get a dodge roll or 2 in there somewhere for tricky spots.

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 22:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 - my belief is that at a reasonable level very little goes on of one person having a strategy of which the other person is unaware. I am very rarely surprised. I think both sides know what is happening and do their best to stop it and the counters. Of course we each make mistakes (or perhaps choices is a better word) and then try to exploit these but they are known challenges rather than unknown strategies.
So I find playing myself very similar to playing an online opponent. So I don’t think much will be lost by playing myself.

garyt1 - thank you for the concern but I won’t be annoyed whatever the outcome. I can’t control how people react to evidence. All I can do is present that evidence and encourage people to see the value in it. If either side of this argument refuses to adjust their views to evidence it is sad for them and sad for humanity but a) getting angry won’t help and b) I unfortunately won’t be surprised given my experiences of people in general. But I very much get where you are coming from. Many would think this a wasted effort and there is a high chance that this is the case.
Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 22:54
FUMBBL Staff
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Perhaps you are the Catalyst for change Harad.

Thank you, thank you. I’m here all week.

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 23, 2018 - 22:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I think I’ve worked out why MJ has the tag and you don’t Wink
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