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Poll
What to do with the Slann Blitzer?
No changes needed, the skill access makes up for the price.
28%
 28%  [ 39 ]
Discount Blitzer Please.
24%
 24%  [ 33 ]
Exchange diving tackle or jump up for block.
12%
 12%  [ 17 ]
Stop Complaining.
35%
 35%  [ 48 ]
Total Votes : 137


Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 27, 2018 - 18:29 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
Of all the people that are so butthurt over this debate it is your, thoralf, that understands it the least and is most often totally of base when it comes to your replies. I would ask you to explain what you mean (multiple times, actually) BUT I really don't care what you have to say considering how far away from basic comprehension of the debate.


Oh, now I got your ATTENTION, Catalyst. Allow me to clarify, Do not worry - I could not care less if you care for it or not.

Here is why. You formulated a provocative thesis - not blodging blitzers is better on Slann than blodging them. My quotes are quite clesr on this matter.

Either you commit to it once and for all, or you don’t. You can continue to dance around it with LOTS of well resounding cliches, as is your wont. Or you can try to square off your shoulders, stand straight, and state clearly what you are willing to hold.

Your choice.

My own position regarding this debate is simple. Dodge increases survivability. I would go so far as to state this is a statistical fact, at least until not every single players have Tackle. Statistics differ from probabilities, but are related. As far as probabilities are concerned, here is my position - it makes little tactical sense not to take Dodge, as Slann is a balling race and they need to complete long strings of actions.

Your two arguments against these points (but tackle, but pro) are invalid. I contend that you do not commit to what you said because you have nothing against that. From an analytical perspective alone, it should be obvious you need to refine your take. This is your problem. You do not deserve getting help coming up with a more reasonable stance. Your obnoxious declamations need to stop first.

Your move.



The 1st half of your post is literally nonsense... as was your entire post before it.

I DO NOT make 2 arguments if you weren't trolling you would see that and converse accordingly. This is not a 1 skill vs the other skill debate as you wish to make it.
It is the holistic choices of several different skills applied across a whole team played at various TV levels but especially at High TV where FUMBBL Tournaments are played.

PERHAPS, if I weren't responding to purposefully wrong-headed objections that refuse to even frame the debate in the context it is presented I wouldn't have had to try to reexplain it to trolls like yourself so often, therefore leading to more clinches to try to break through your overly thick skull. But what should I expect from a troll other than obstinate and dishonest baiting tactics in a debate.

Your oversimplification of the argument I make is your attempt to control the outcome. Like someone seeking to WIN a debate by cheating rather than someone seeking to understand or comprehend Agree or disagree both are fine. You seek some sort of submission based on your false rephrasing of my position. You want "is Pro better for Dodging than Dodge" and insist that I have ever said anything lose to that. I am tired of your dishonesty and trolling. Go back to self abusing I'll have no more of it.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 27, 2018 - 23:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
It is the holistic choices of several different skills applied across a whole team played at various TV levels but especially at High TV where FUMBBL Tournaments are played.


Talk about NONSENSE.

Either you claim that Dodge is NOT WORTH taking on Slann blitzers, or you don't.

Either you claim that PRo is BETTER than Dodge for Slann, or you don't.

If you don't commit on one of these claims, there's no reason why would Harad try to prove it or them wrong.

WHICH is it?

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 29, 2018 - 04:27 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
It is the holistic choices of several different skills applied across a whole team played at various TV levels but especially at High TV where FUMBBL Tournaments are played.


Talk about NONSENSE.

Either you claim that Dodge is NOT WORTH taking on Slann blitzers, or you don't.

Either you claim that PRo is BETTER than Dodge for Slann, or you don't.

If you don't commit on one of these claims, there's no reason why would Harad try to prove it or them wrong.

WHICH is it?


Either you are a Troll or you are a Clown... or both. Which is it? Probably something much, much worse.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 29, 2018 - 04:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Can't commit to the claims you already made, Catalyst?

COWARD.

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
delusional



Joined: Jan 18, 2013

Post   Posted: May 29, 2018 - 08:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:

On dodge being less useful at high TV values.


I think you have a very good point.

If you are Slann you may play Lizards, Goblins or some teams without G access. Most G accessing teams will have some tackle on them. Tackle is probably a nice 3rd skill, you get Block, Mighty blow with a double then tackle is up there.

Sadly the biggest flaw in Fumbbl is the Uber skills of Block, Guard and Dodge. It's why I hated it when they changed the old Stand Firm and Foul Appearance (Although FA was way too overpowered). It meant that everyone now has more incentive to pick the same skills.

Yep in short everyone picks Dodge, then everyone picks tackle to counter Dodge. Blitzers are particularly critical pieces, so your probably going to get blocked by a player with tackle at high TV.

At the start, if playing Slann... IMHO would go easy mode and get Blodge quickly. Slann are hard enough. At High TV, dodge may not be as good a value as at the low to mid tv.

It's balsy to skip dodge, but it makes sense.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 29, 2018 - 17:01 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
Can't commit to the claims you already made, Catalyst?

COWARD.


Rolling Eyes Can't commit to not Trolling?


BALLSY says the guy new to the tread.
When you READ and COMPREHEND the strategy it is BALLSY. Cool
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 29, 2018 - 19:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
When you READ and COMPREHEND the strategy it is BALLSY. 8)


NOBODY ever argued otherwise, Catalyst. The BALLSIEST strategy might very well be the WORST. Under that light, I'm not sure why Harad would try to prove you WRONG.

Also note that after a team reaches its theorical sweet spot, there are DIMINISHING RETURNS in adding skills, so experimentiong with PRo costs less. I seriously doubt that it's possible to reach that Slann sweet spot without blodging or wrodging most if not all positionals. I would consider PRo afterwards, say on the dedicated killer that gains no stat. A mix of Block, MB, Tackle, Frenzy, Dauntless, PRo looks plausible to me, although I'd go Jaggernot before PRo.

Even if I took PRo for that blitzer, I see no reason not to blodgestep the three other ones except ballsiness. A dedicated GUARD screams for blodgestep. A dedicated BALL RETRIEVER too. Fend would be nice then. Any stat freak gets an automatic Dodge, with Stand Firm instead of SS in case of +ST.

And before you reach that sweet spot, Dodge makes lots more SENSE than PRo. Catchers become win conditions. Blitzers become threats.

Go ballsy. I'll go GRUE.

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 29, 2018 - 20:03 Reply with quote Back to top

delusional wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:

On dodge being less useful at high TV values.


I think you have a very good point.

If you are Slann you may play Lizards, Goblins or some teams without G access. Most G accessing teams will have some tackle on them. Tackle is probably a nice 3rd skill, you get Block, Mighty blow with a double then tackle is up there.

Sadly the biggest flaw in Fumbbl is the Uber skills of Block, Guard and Dodge. It's why I hated it when they changed the old Stand Firm and Foul Appearance (Although FA was way too overpowered). It meant that everyone now has more incentive to pick the same skills.

Yep in short everyone picks Dodge, then everyone picks tackle to counter Dodge. Blitzers are particularly critical pieces, so your probably going to get blocked by a player with tackle at high TV.

At the start, if playing Slann... IMHO would go easy mode and get Blodge quickly. Slann are hard enough. At High TV, dodge may not be as good a value as at the low to mid tv.

It's balsy to skip dodge, but it makes sense.


Yes and no - in general how many tackle do you expect to see on non-dorfs and cdorks at high TV? 4-5 tops? Against teams with big guys or players without G access you can tactically mark those guys with blodge SSers and cackle as your opponent furiously tries to block them off or consume a blitz action with tackle.

For teams with A access players, it rarely makes sense to skip dodge on the belief it will be nullified by tackle. Sure, you'll be out 160 TV or so if you have 8 blodgers against dorfs and cdorks but...in most other matchups the other coach will have to be more cognizant of what they're doing and you still have a 3+ option with Slann Blitzers to dodge away.

Like it was said above, the value isn't so much in dodging away as it is requiring a specific tool in the vicinity to get max odds blocks.

I asked if it made sense to skip earlier in the thread at high TV but after working trough some stuff around the question the alternative is basically guard for 0-31 spp players. Block, Guard, Coach's Choice or Block, Dodge, Guard/Coache's Choice, either way. Sure, stats might get in the way of that and team necessity might warrant wrestle, tackle or something else but in general there's not that many readymade options for a mature team. Guard is always good.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: May 29, 2018 - 21:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Denvork runs 7 Tackle. Just sayin'. It happens. Some coaches are Tackle-happy. Some are not.

Blodge gets worse as you go up in TV.

That's all true. But Dodge > Pro, and having Pro is no reason not to take Dodge.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 29, 2018 - 21:08 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Denvork runs 7 Tackle. Just sayin'. It happens. Some coaches are Tackle-happy. Some are not.

Blodge gets worse as you go up in TV.

That's all true. But Dodge > Pro, and having Pro is no reason not to take Dodge.


That's also what 2700 and a draft league? Wink
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: May 29, 2018 - 21:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Ranked Amateurs have 6 at 1800. Many Human type teams have 4-5.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.


Last edited by JackassRampant on May 29, 2018 - 21:12; edited 1 time in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 29, 2018 - 21:11 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Ranked Amateurs have 6 at 1800.


That's a specialty team with nothing but G access. And yes, you're a wee bit tackle happy. Smile
awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: May 29, 2018 - 23:29 Reply with quote Back to top

I can only say PASS BLOCK ALL MENS

_________________
"la virtú sta nel cielo e nella terra, ma anche nelle nuvole e nelle stelle"

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 30, 2018 - 02:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Being TACKLE happy is most useful when meeting a beefier team with blodgers. Being Tackle happy comes at a price: carrying bloat against non-blodging teams. That price is less for blodge teams as long as most teams are not Tackle happy.

Denvork evolves in a league with a Khemri team that has five blodgers. History reveals that speed still kills slow teams.

Tacklers gonna tackle. Blodgers gonna blodge. Clawers gonna claw. Hatters gonna hat.

_________________
There is always Sneaky Git.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 30, 2018 - 07:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Best skill to have Dodge or Pro:

When Dodging... DODGE
When Picking up Ball... PRO
When Going For It... PRO
When Catching... PRO
When Passing... PRO
When Leaping... PRO

When Blocking... PRO
When Jumping Up to Block.. PRO
When being Blocked w/o Tackle... DODGE
When being Blocked w Tackle... TIE
When doing absolutely nothing... TIE
When Fouling... PRO (actually, idk... can you use Pro on fouls?)


When Dodging WITH DODGE and AG3... must roll 3+, if failed must roll 3+
When Dodging WITH PRO and AG3... must roll 3+, if failed must roll 4+, then roll 3+


Why would you choose to Dodge with a player that has AG3, Diving Tackle and Jump Up?
How does Dodging Away aid in maximizing the synergy of those skills?

If you Dodge Away you lose your Tackle Zone limiting your use of Diving Tackle.
One might assume you intend to MARK opponents players with Diving Tackle.

If you Dodge Away you likely lose your ability to Jump Up and Block from Prone.
One might assume you place Jump Up on a player to do just that.

One might assume a player that Jump Up is one you plan to use to Block from Prone which is ALMOST an extra Blitz on turns you are able to use that skill in that way.
With Slann you have potentially 4 extra Blitzes per turn (almost).

One mighty assume you would want a player with Jump Up to pack a punch and would give them Mighty Blow as soon as possible.

One might also assume the same about the Tackle skill on this player because you are probably marking and Blocking and Blocking from Prone threats to steal the ball or to score with the ball (these opponents players very likely to have Dodge).

The synergy with Tackle and Mighty Blow is most effective in removing the players you are most likely to be marking.
The synergy with Tackle and Diving Tackle is most effective at tying down the plauers you are most likely to be marking.

The players you are marking with will need Guard support and they are 4 of the only 5 players on the team that can have Guard easily.

So therefore the conclusion... that these players need Block (or Wrestle if you prefer), Tackle, Mighty Blow and Guard as soon as possible to be most effective at maximizing there built in skill set.

As a 5th skill Side Step is highly effective in combination with the original skills and the skills since acquired. It helps to potentially maneuver a player you are using to mark to another target, to an open square (if no follow up) OR to reposition him to mark the opponent from a new square. (And MAYBE you take Stand Firm instead or use a mix, whatever.)

Side Step can also by used to infiltrate a CAGE and should you be Blocked to the ground you can still use Jump Up to Block From Prone the following turn be able to hit the ball carrier or other wise open up the cage for another player to make a BLITZ!.

I almost never develop a plan for Legend but this would be a good place for PRO (or Dodge, if you must).

As you might now be able to see. There ARE better skills available that have synergy with the Slann Blitzer.
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