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Poll
Is the Chaos Dwarf Minotaur worth it?
Yes he is!
25%
 25%  [ 23 ]
No. He is a @#$%@#$ Minotard.
60%
 60%  [ 56 ]
Emphasy is cool.
14%
 14%  [ 13 ]
Total Votes : 92


NickNutria



Joined: Jul 25, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 19:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Frenzy big guys are better than non frenzy big guys, if you regularly use them for blocking/blitzing. They skill up twice as fast as other big guys. If you want to blitz with other guys then a frenzy big guy is almost never worth it.

I used to have a killer mino in an chaos pact team and he was great fun. Still he was a great risk, but also a great reward player.
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 22:24 Reply with quote Back to top

delusional wrote:
I was reading a guide recently.
"It's not the amount of power you have, it's the amount of perceived power."


Awesome and relevant quote, but used almost entirely wrongly to support the wrong conclusion(imho).

Minotaurs are terrible players, but their perceived power, or rather their ability to project power, can be great.

especially to fairly new opponents. Because most veterans will have killed a Mino or two, and that tends to remove the fear.

they are a strange Big Guy in some ways, I do think you can get good use out of them at rookie level, but CD struggle to afford them starting out. But before the Bulls skill they can be comparatively effective blitzers.

At mid range TV they are a total liability, low AV and frenzy traps make them susceptible to going off field, they are DP magnets, too slow to effectively surf, and certainly cant cover both sidelines. And they remian a big chunk of TV to be so brittle.

At high TV, if the Mino is developed well (at least one double, ideally 2), then they can again be useful, because the non hobgob cd roster is limited, and at 2400 a Mino is probably more use to you than a hobgob.

But even then any rational examination of a CD Mino come sup with the following list:

Minus Points:
Too Slow
Crap AV
No easy mutations
Expensive
Other Blitz options
Frenzy support needed


Plus Points:
Quite Cool
Frightens Noobs

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 22:56 Reply with quote Back to top

I think "Not having to field a hobgob if you don't want to' is a plus but i hate hobgobs outside of the ones that get +AG and or foul when you're up 2-3 players already.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 23:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Balle2000 wrote:
Deathroller


THIS

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2018 - 23:41 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:

Plus Points:
Quite Cool
Frightens Noobs


I guess that means I'm a noob. I always breath easier when I see the CD team lacks a developed minotaur.

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2018 - 00:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Noob
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2018 - 07:12 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:

Frightens Noobs


This has much to recommend it.

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2018 - 17:37 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the key to using a Minotaur is to use him on the Weak Side of the Field.
Have your scrum to one side of the screen... that is now the Strong Side.
Have your Mino, backed up by 1 CD and 1 Hobbo OR 1 Bull on the Weak Side.

Use him over their to target the weakest link of your opponents Weak Side hoping to remove them 1 weak link at a time.
Keep him away from the scrum. He needs room to MOVE. He needs to be able to avoid areas where Guard is Massing. He needs to be away from the easy Gang Foul.

Using a Weak Side/ Strong Side strategy requires you to act as if you have 2 separate Units.
Sometimes you have to move Weak Side 1st... sometimes Strong Side 1st... sometimes back and forth.
Assuming you don't make a Turnover before you decide it is time to use your Weak Side you should move your Mino 1st in most circumstances... and I mean MOVE. His job is to eat space exerting as many TZ as he can. His job is to Man-Mark an opponent he can knock around and maybe remove on the NEXT Turn. His job is to take up space away from the ball in the area your opponent will run to when they cannot bust through your Strong Side.

When your Mino begins the turn Man-Marking you need to move his sidekick CD and Hobbo to be sure the Gap the Mino was guarding stays closed off. Block with the Mino only after your Strong Side Blocks and Blitz are done. (Unless you want to use the Blitz of another player to team up after the Mino Block to attempt a Surf). Then Block with the Mino... do not use him to BLITZ because he may waste your Blitz... UNLESS the best plan is the Blitz and recover some ground using the Mino to Blitz/Surf.

So... again. In general. Pull him out of the scrum to cover the Weak Side or Backdoor.
Move him every turn to cut off the Field or the Man-Mark the easiest guy to kill on the other team (you might be able to remove that player by watching him Dodge away fom your Mino). Always back him up with 1 CD and 1 Hobbo or Bull (I prefer the Hobbo w/DP and the CD w/Guard). Block the players you Man-Mark late in the turn so that Turnovers are limited risk.
Do not Blitz with him unless it could be a huge game changer. You should have at least 1 kick ass Blitzer over on your Strong Side removing players over there.

That is the basics for me and how I try to use him

Some opponents look at it as a WIN if your Mino is tied down away from the scrum chasing a Lineman... and it might be a win for them IF he never removes them. But I find he does tend to remove 1 to 3 players game running wild on the Weak Side.

Some opponents will obsess about him and send too many Blitzes his way to take him out. Unless they get it done right away those guys are fools. Because that will end up exposing them somewhere along the Strong Side. Plus you have backup over there that should be able to reinforce the Weak Side and he Bulls to shut off the Backfield.
Jimrod



Joined: Apr 05, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2018 - 13:25 Reply with quote Back to top

I was just thinking the same thing with a fresh CD team, no Minotaur, progressing "ok" (4-4-0), TV at 1350 and 190k burning a hole in the bank...

It's tempting to buy a Mino but the big jump in TV will no doubt hamper progress as I face much more developed teams than my 8 games allows, am thinking sticking to 12 on the roster with the spare Hobo and hanging around in the mid-low TV's as long as poss... The big guy is so tempting though, especially as he'd need developing to be any use at even higher TV! Meh, will probably try and go without based on this thread! Smile
Grod



Joined: Sep 30, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2018 - 23:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, since buying a minotaur my season went downhill. I can largely pinpoint the blame with it too. He has been quite useless amd cost me positionally a number of times. I thought he would br awesome with a few skills but dont think i have the patience...

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delusional



Joined: Jan 18, 2013

Post   Posted: Oct 02, 2018 - 01:17 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
delusional wrote:
I was reading a guide recently.
"It's not the amount of power you have, it's the amount of perceived power."


Awesome and relevant quote, but used almost entirely wrongly to support the wrong conclusion(imho).

Minotaurs are terrible players, but their perceived power, or rather their ability to project power, can be great.

especially to fairly new opponents. Because most veterans will have killed a Mino or two, and that tends to remove the fear.

they are a strange Big Guy in some ways, I do think you can get good use out of them at rookie level, but CD struggle to afford them starting out. But before the Bulls skill they can be comparatively effective blitzers.

At mid range TV they are a total liability, low AV and frenzy traps make them susceptible to going off field, they are DP magnets, too slow to effectively surf, and certainly cant cover both sidelines. And they remian a big chunk of TV to be so brittle.

At high TV, if the Mino is developed well (at least one double, ideally 2), then they can again be useful, because the non hobgob cd roster is limited, and at 2400 a Mino is probably more use to you than a hobgob.

But even then any rational examination of a CD Mino come sup with the following list:

Minus Points:
Too Slow
Crap AV
No easy mutations
Expensive
Other Blitz options
Frenzy support needed


Plus Points:
Quite Cool
Frightens Noobs


Is the Mino really that crap AV?
It's AV8 on a str5 big guy.

Maybe people vs Chaos Dwarfs differently to how I used to verse them.... Occupy both bulls, look for AV7 target practice called Hobgoblins. I never played them, but versing them I had a good record.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 02, 2018 - 02:23 Reply with quote Back to top

I love Minotaurs... on the other side of the field. Yah, load him up with skills I don't want to see, like Claw and Juggernaut and... awww, who am I kidding?!? He's probably going to pull off one play, and then he'll be exposed, and I'll rock his world, either by removing him, or by stunning him or seeing him fail a WA roll from prone, then rendering him valueless on the backside of the play. I don't fear any Minotaur, because I know how to set up a foul properly. Like, who wants a Minotaur when you could have a Hobgoblin and a Bribe?

@ delusional, this is totally a knock on his AV, given what he does. With AG2, Loner, no Block, and Frenzy, he ends up in contact a lot, and AV8 is absolutely a massive disadvantage in those cases. Against a non-MB opponent, AV8 is 5/3 (167%) as likely to break as AV9; against a MB opponent, it's 7/5 (140%) and about doubled Cas odds compared to non-MB (though with Wild Animal, MA5, and a huge base cost, any AV break is a catastrophe, even just a stun). Then fouls are all at a net +1, which is huge if he's not on the play-side, 'cuz then he won't be gangfouled.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 02, 2018 - 02:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Rat Ogres are way better. MA6 and Prehensile Tail is like a million times as good as Horns and Thick Skull. Prehensile Tail actually makes him a serious space-eater against agility teams, while MA6 + Frenzy is a lot better than MA5. Also, note that if you use him the way I do, to feed him, Horns is worthless, while Prehensile Tail is some insurance against Wild Animal.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 03, 2018 - 13:56 Reply with quote Back to top

On the other hand Rat Ogres are on Skaven teams which generally don't have as many Guards as Chaos/Chaos Renegades/Chaos Dwarfs, and Guards help to keep the Minotaur safe.

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juck101



Joined: Nov 16, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 17, 2018 - 08:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplechest nailed it. They are terrible and av8 is a real liability on an av9 team. I do much better without one
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