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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 19, 2018 - 05:07 Reply with quote Back to top

uzkulak wrote:
I think you also have to remember that a str4 guy with blodge is difficult to take down. Vamps are a higher risk team than most. You don't need the perfect cage to progress, especially when it is relatively easier for you to get the ball back.


This is a good point, that they don't need full caging. Perhaps in some cases I am trying to be too conservative with them by trying to cage fully, and not taking calculated risks that I should be taking.

delusional wrote:
I think that what appears as "I have no idea how their offense works", is a result of their versatility not disablement. They are a very strong team with only two defects BL and an average MV6.


Another defect they have is the AV7 on the thralls, which is a big one. Because of this, I feel like you can't 'hang about' for too long on offense, or you risk running too low on players. Also, with AG3, the thralls aren't that mobile, and many players will play to tie up as many thralls as possible every turn, to try to limit the team's mobility and boost the number of hits they'll get on those AV7 pinatas the following turn, if something goes wrong, or you're forced to retreat.

delusional wrote:
I had always thought the most obvious scoring route is to have a Thrall matched with a vamp. Vamp and thrall run to the end zone. Add Jump up to the thrall and you have a hard to stop scoring combination.

But you can do anything. Barge down one side using one or two thralls for OFAB and throw the ball to whomever is standing. Keep a few thralls 6 squares from the endzone and throw to whomever is not marked. Gaze a marker and throw to an open thrall... Anything.


I agree that matching thralls with vamps makes sense in general. Or, at least trying to run thralls ahead of where you want the vamps to go, when possible. Again though, it's not always so simple, as thralls get tied up easily and are only AG3, so can't dodge reliably. I think this is why I'm finding the quick 2-turn score quite attractive, because it gives the vamp player a chance to take the initiative positionally, before the thralls get tied up (or bashed off).

delusional wrote:
Pro is a must for Vamps. Otherwise pick as you see fit.


I'm not sure I'd agree it's a must, although I think it's a good choice. My understanding is that there have been some successful vamp teams on FUMBBL that haven't used a lot of Pro. Personally, I think Block/Dodge are more critical, because they provide reliable backup for the more critical rolls that would cause a turnover if failed. My plan is Block/Dodge first, then to take a combination of Pro, Sidestep and Tackle for the third and later skills.

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 19, 2018 - 15:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I've seen a lot of different builds and in-game strategies used with vampires. They all worked. Despite having only two types of players, they really are the most diverse team in bloodbowl.

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mawph



Joined: Jul 02, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 19, 2018 - 16:02 Reply with quote Back to top

blodge first, I'd say. Pro can be useful, but its one of those that you'll curse lacking one of block or dodge before you curse not having pro.
I'm also in the camp of biting your thralls pretty regularly, rather than using rerolls. It negates the downside of AV7, when you CAS then straight off the bat with a vampire... The only advice I can offer on vampire offense is: don't get stuck needing to beat column defence (i.e. needing to rely on Hypno gaze to get through). Its a great bonus for vampires, but you need to (as better suggested above) ensure you've an ability to score without needing to ensure tacklezones are gazed away.
kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 21, 2018 - 19:22 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
Sigmar1 wrote:
I've reached Legend as a Vampire player and I have no idea how their offense works.


Lol! Quote of the week? Wink


Lol, site/client considers me legend with vamps (and slann) on box.

And i am not sure i know how to play vamps (nor slann) that efficiently either.

Lol
gamelsetlmatch



Joined: Mar 05, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 21, 2018 - 19:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Some things are difficult to be able to explain and playing as a Vampire coach is definitely one of them.
Vampires are the Matrix of Bloodbowl teams because of how many levels you can reach because of Hypnogaze.
There are all different types of coaches on this site and within that, a wealth of experience because of being able to watch replays.
Maybe try that out to be able to take some of the best practices of coaches you trust, and add your personal touch to it?
For example, you could start by checking out The_Provocateur and Steakhachez..

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2018 - 22:04 Reply with quote Back to top

gamelsetlmatch wrote:

For example, you could start by checking out ... Steakhachez..


Yes, learning to mostly play only opponents ~150 CR is indeed the greatest weapon in a vamp coaches' toolbox.

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delusional



Joined: Jan 18, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 29, 2018 - 23:29 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:


delusional wrote:
Pro is a must for Vamps. Otherwise pick as you see fit.


I'm not sure I'd agree it's a must, although I think it's a good choice. My understanding is that there have been some successful vamp teams on FUMBBL that haven't used a lot of Pro. Personally, I think Block/Dodge are more critical, because they provide reliable backup for the more critical rolls that would cause a turnover if failed. My plan is Block/Dodge first, then to take a combination of Pro, Sidestep and Tackle for the third and later skills.


look they are all good skills. But I find that Pro served me best, why? Because I find thrall's are targets and a common tactic is to isolate vamps from thralls.
By having pro on 2+ guys I can move them first without as much risk of bloodlust.

I like my players on the field.
bancobat



Joined: Aug 25, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2018 - 00:08 Reply with quote Back to top

i think pro is a must, bloodlust, gaze and even block dices, save your RR... always useful, blodge then pro
i too prefer to score fast: risky to stall, almost impossible to outnumber your opponent and you have one of the best defensive team of the game, so it's better to lead and try to break opponent drive, specially early in the game when you have a full team on the pitch
to resume my point : the team lose players quite fast so score fast and defend agressively
my 2 cents
NickNutria



Joined: Jul 25, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 30, 2018 - 18:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Offensive play with vampires is really easy: pick up the ball, break through on one siode, score in two turns (or three if you prefer).
DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2018 - 01:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I find vampires offensive too.

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gamelsetlmatch



Joined: Mar 05, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2018 - 14:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Don't forget lots and lots and lots of fouling!

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2018 - 14:59 Reply with quote Back to top

gamelsetlmatch wrote:
Don't forget lots and lots and lots of fouling!


Fouling with Thralls? Is that really a good strategy? I mean, they lose players fast enough anyway, you want them getting sent off as well?

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kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Dec 11, 2018 - 15:04 Reply with quote Back to top

40k player with 20k to dp.. cheap bench.. yeah, i like fouling with vamps especially if oppo only has 11
gamelsetlmatch



Joined: Mar 05, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 11, 2018 - 17:20 Reply with quote Back to top

You can very easily bankrupt yourself with a Vamp team. Its healthy to dedicate to getting a couple thralls fouled out.

For an actual easy to use 'Base Offense'..

Think of your drive as the letter Z.
It is in your best interest to force your opponent to seal off the side you head down first.
This leaves them with having to try to seal off the back side.
HG allows you to cut right through them, which is why I like to play with 6 Vamps so that i can stand toe to toe in the middle of the pitch knowing that even if they pop the ball ..you are in good shape to continue your drive.
Keep heading to the opposite side.
On the back end, now, if you throw in a Frenzy Vamp ..you can try to surf a player or two.
..if you want, you can split your team up a bit to hunt down and surf/foul players that are going to be a headache for the game.

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Mattius



Joined: Sep 03, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 11, 2018 - 22:51 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
Vampires are an interesting and challenging team. I don't have much experience with them - only played about 30 games in total - and I'm having some trouble getting them to work properly.

It seems to me that the biggest challenge with them is on their offense. When they're on D, the strategy seems fairly clear-cut: use the hypno gaze to strike at the ball carrier whenever you can (ideally every turn). Either you get the dice and nab the ball or you don't and end up out of position and/or losing too many players to be effective.

However, offense to me seems a lot more challenging. It seems like they should be trying for a quick TD, because they lose players too quickly to stall or hang around, but it's really not easy (or very safe) to try for a 2-turn TD, with their blanket MA6, as it would involve several gfis and passes. I'm finding that if I try to push down one side with a couple of vamps, it's fairly easy for my opponent to shut down that side. The vamps don't then really have the speed or passing skills to effectively switch sides, and before I know it I end up getting bogged down, losing players and getting caught.

So, does anyone have any advice on offensive strategies for vamps? Especially at low-mid TV, before you've got a lot of skills or +stats. Do you try to push down one side aggressively, or try to switch sides to catch the defender out? Or, do you stay central, to try to keep your options open and stay flexible?

Interestingly, I haven't found much advice around about vampire offense, even though it seems to be their biggest weakness. There don't seem to be any existing threads about it here, and there is very scanty advice in both the strategy guide on here and in Plasmoid's Vampire Playbook. Very interested to hear any thoughts from some experienced vampire players Smile


Great question and a very interesting thread.

In the past I had these 3 players which solved most the issues...
https://fumbbl.com/p/player?op=view&player_id=6382268
https://fumbbl.com/p/player?op=view&player_id=6382956
https://fumbbl.com/p/player?op=view&player_id=8429791

Now that i don't have stat freaks :/, a few things that I think are useful. I'm still trying to get my head around it however!

*Have one vamp with mighty blow, i find it very surprising how few teams utilize this. Makes offense a lot easier in many games.

*Don't panic, sounds silly but once i started to calm down on offense and not feel i have to quick score, got a lot easier

*Kick first when you have 14/15 players. You then have max chance of a steal.

*If you split up the field then you might not be able to box, but, it can allow you to have a 4 on 4 situation. Given how strong vamp players are, this will often go in your favor.

*On defence, even if you have a chance at the ball, if it requires many BLs and gazes. Sometimes better to let it go for another turn. Recommend playing conservatively until T6. Unless of course you have an AG5 leaping monster...


I'll keep an eye on this thread as some good knowledge here!
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