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Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2018 - 21:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Khaltan wrote:
So I took Arktoris up on his offer of a match, this has just ended and I'm happy to say that the amtch conclusively proved that rolling casualties on fully 50% of succesful armour breaks without having mighty blow is a superior strategy to using assassins. In other words Nuffle doesn't think you should be fielding assassins either.


I was going to suggest some actual matches, but I doubt that will end the argument Smile

maybe link the match?

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2018 - 21:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Khaltan wrote:
So I took Arktoris up on his offer of a match, this has just ended and I'm happy to say that the amtch conclusively proved that rolling casualties on fully 50% of succesful armour breaks without having mighty blow is a superior strategy to using assassins. In other words Nuffle doesn't think you should be fielding assassins either.


Watched the replay - loved some of your moves especially that leap witch blitz that pushed the assassin BC into more of your players to make the block.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2018 - 21:55 Reply with quote Back to top

link https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=4029941

both of ark's assassins got completions and one got the mvp



actually..... i'd not considered this before but midway through first half it happens;
if your opponent sends 1 elf into your half as a scoring threat, marking him with an assassin is a great way to use them. they can dodge away but shadowing
if they don't dodge away or they endturn/turnover earlier, you get to stab them

it only takes 1 guy instead of several, to make them unappealing as a scoring option


Last edited by Sp00keh on Dec 01, 2018 - 22:04; edited 1 time in total
Khaltan



Joined: Jun 22, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2018 - 22:04 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Khaltan wrote:
So I took Arktoris up on his offer of a match, this has just ended and I'm happy to say that the amtch conclusively proved that rolling casualties on fully 50% of succesful armour breaks without having mighty blow is a superior strategy to using assassins. In other words Nuffle doesn't think you should be fielding assassins either.


Watched the replay - loved some of your moves especially that leap witch blitz that pushed the assassin BC into more of your players to make the block.


Thanks. I actually did that to get the ball to a better position when I took him down and IIRC to ensure the second block was 2d also. Then the second block didn't bring him downs and I was oh, I can push into an existing player to get a third blok without using a reroll.
Wuhan



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2018 - 22:46 Reply with quote Back to top

that was a great match, showing off what assassins can do.

The one mistake was trying to Farm Spps, (when it mattered), and failing a pass, when a hand off would have been better. And then Failng the catch. And having a bad scatter.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2018 - 22:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I refuse to let this forum degenerate into experiments.

Let's stick to our armchairs, please!

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 01, 2018 - 23:41 Reply with quote Back to top

would have to agree with Khaltan, if you don't take assassins, you can still do well if you roll lots of 5s and 6s instead.

dice report

on details, assassin proved essential in stopping the first TD. Got a free stab on the ball carrier which had it been a lineman, even with wrestle, would have been too risky especially so early in the turn. Assassin then had ball, comp'd, and score.

Assassins also locked a few players down causing Khaltan stress in planning out moves. Khaltan went over 4mins one time. Had it been a table top game, he would have experienced about 3 turnovers from the clock. However, if internet was lagging for him, disregard.

Assassins also proved more useful than mightyblow blitzers and were the primary source of KOs on the LOS...but that might have been more the dice than not.

several occasions could have blitzed the ball carrier with an assassin/stab but didn't. Elected instead to use wrestle witch elves.

Khaltan didn't seem afraid of the assassins. He kept them marked.

ok, first data point done.

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Khaltan



Joined: Jun 22, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 02, 2018 - 07:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
would have to agree with Khaltan, if you don't take assassins, you can still do well if you roll lots of 5s and 6s instead.

dice report

on details, assassin proved essential in stopping the first TD. Got a free stab on the ball carrier which had it been a lineman, even with wrestle, would have been too risky especially so early in the turn. Assassin then had ball, comp'd, and score.

I'll have to disagree with that. succeeding on that stab was a 28% chance. while the block was -2d when you made it you could easily have gotten it to 2d which would have been 55% with wrestle, easily worth the less than 3% risk of failure (even a regular block would be 31%, though not giving me the chance to do a sidestep and not needing a setup nor running the risk of doubleskull does make it better than the block without wrestle. Wretle+tackle would have succeeded 75% of the chance. Of cause this is yet another situation where strip ball would have served either of us well. Stab worked in this situation, but I think wrestle would have been better on average.

Arktoris wrote:
Assassins also locked a few players down causing Khaltan stress in planning out moves. Khaltan went over 4mins one time. Had it been a table top game, he would have experienced about 3 turnovers from the clock. However, if internet was lagging for him, disregard.

No lag, the Blodge, sidestep shadowing assassin was a pain to be sure. it was the shadowing that was problematic though, not the stab A WE or a blitzer could have done the same even more efficiently. Mind you I don't think assassin are completely useless in all cases, just to expensive for what they do and they are all but useless against heavily armored teams where stab has low succeed chance and who will bash the Av 7 assassin into the ground rather than dodge away activating shadowing. The Assassins they would have been better against woodies or similar though. On balance I don't think they're worth it.

Arktoris wrote:
AAssassins also proved more useful than mightyblow blitzers and were the primary source of KOs on the LOS...but that might have been more the dice than not.

Was the dice I think. Against LOS fooder (meaning no block or wrestle a 2d mighty blow get you cas 7,5% (5,5% against block), KO 9% (6,6% against block) and stun 17,9% (13,1% against block). Stab gives 4,6% cas 6,9% KO and 15,4% Stun. Mighty blow is strictly better against no block, fairly equivalent against block (depending on value of cas/stun/Knockdown etc. Stab is of cause better against Dodge if the MB does not have Tackle.

Arktoris wrote:
several occasions could have blitzed the ball carrier with an assassin/stab but didn't. Elected instead to use wrestle witch elves.

Khaltan didn't seem afraid of the assassins. He kept them marked.

ok, first data point done.

A few of the times I kept them marked was because my turn ended before I moved my character away, but no stab didn't keep me up at night, MB is scarier. Would prefer to avoid the assassin with my av 7 players. Also shadowing does discourage dodging away.
Applulz



Joined: Nov 25, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 03, 2018 - 14:21 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
Applulz wrote:


I also disagree with taking block on the assassin, since he is so starved for SPP and will likely never get more than a few skills if you are playing vs lots of bash teams. I think dodge/leap makes him instantly more useful since block is basically just a pure defensive skill on him.


The #1 issue with an assassin is that his two starter skills, Shadowing and Stab, come with the draw back that both those abilities/skills require you to start next to your foe. Inless you are fond with the blitz stab, which once again leaves you standing next to a foe if you should fail.

Block/Dodge is the best combo of skills in the game hands down. He gets them both on a normal roll and coupled with the idea that he needs to stand next to foes, he better have them.

Having a assassin standing around in the back ground with leap so he can threaten a cage with a leap stab attack seems a lot more ineffective than blodging him up with sidestep and take his chances against players with out tackle and hound them all game long by always standing next to them.

Block skill is the #1 most important skill in the game. With out block you give up to much an advantage on the block dice to your foe. 99% of players take block before tackle. So when talking about block dice and % to knock down you should almost always take block as your first skill.

**Elves can get away with taking dodge first at low TV and make sure they dodge away from players who have block on the other side.**


In my experience, by the time you can blodge up an assassin there will be plenty of tacklepomb around (I play BB2) and against that he is basically liable to get removed the first time he is attacked if he is exposed for any reason.

As an AV7 I only use him in the backline or to mark an isolated squishy player (which a good coach won't give you).

The dodge leap makes him substantially better against squishy teams in my opinion. He is still basically worthless against av8/9 bash, but he will always be worthless against armor bash.

If I go block / dodge first I always feel like I have a move busted armor busted blitzer for 130k.

I am not saying to never get block, but it's not what I would get ASAP. Leap gives the team some new tools to work with, rushing blodge gives you a super expensive av7 line fodder in my opinion.
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