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Poll
Will you be leaving?
Yes, we're ready to take on all races!
27%
 27%  [ 8 ]
Maybe a bit, but I'll keep the forest in sight.
24%
 24%  [ 7 ]
No Way! Those other races are big meanies!
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I'll be departing from this clickbait-titled thread.
17%
 17%  [ 5 ]
Who could walk away from all this PIE!!!
31%
 31%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 29


Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2019 - 23:13 Reply with quote Back to top

right, some people DO overthink it, which makes it very hard to get competitive scores. thus the proposal to change it Razz if it's based primarily on ff and wins, then you'll get scores based on the combined quality of the opposing team and coach, and so you can do exactly what you suggest, and get points worthy of the game.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2019 - 00:06 Reply with quote Back to top

at one time they did have a CR factor, but they got rid of it. Not sure why.

As for the rest, you are forgetting what ELF is about. It's about leaving your comfort zone, beat the enemy, and humiliate him. This is why there are points for playing high TV, for winning decisively instead of barely, and for causing casualties.

_________________
Hail to Frik! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Raiders of the Lost Tomb
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2019 - 00:51 Reply with quote Back to top

except that's turned into 'the highest score is whoever plays the easiest opponent - whether that's picked, or through luck, or because that was the only person available at the time you happen to be able to play.

Which means, to be competitive, you need to be able to win a minimum of 4 games with at least 5-0 scores. That's not realistic for most people to be able to do in competitive games. So giving points for TDs and Cas have changed the scoring to places where many of us don't like what it takes to be competitive.

The different categories themselves will make E.L.F.s leave their comfort zones. Making all elves take mighty blow instead of guard in order to try to get more cas, that isn't the point of getting out of the comfort zone. Playing AGAINST people who have 8 mighty blow, that is the point of E.L.F.

They got rid of CR, because some coaches actively started going crazy with it - only playing legends who were coaching halflings, only playing halflings if they were coached by legends. Then people made it relative CR, and coaches were actively playing stunties between E.L.F. matches to keep their own CR down to keep the relative CR bonus maximized.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2019 - 01:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Getting beat up by orcs is not the point of ELF...beating up an orc team is. So yeah, lets encourage mightyblow and dp/sg. And let's face it, guard gets you CASs too. Mighty blow isn't going to do you a lot of good if you only have -2d blocks as your options.

The last half of your statement proves why CR isn't a factor and things should stay as they are. Ok, got it.

The_Demon doesn't go around hunting low CR coaches. He plays a MASSIVE number of games, and this time around, it happens most of his best scores were from lower CR coaches. That's because high CR tends to have a bug up their #$^# and not want to play unless the teams are highly advantaged in their favor.

This is how you get a medal in ELF. Have a high TV team, play other high TV teams, foul, don't stall,...and play LOTS of games. Swampserpent loses most of his games and even he got bronze last season...because he fits the profile of someone "leaving the forest". The system works.

_________________
Hail to Frik! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Raiders of the Lost Tomb
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2019 - 01:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Hum. I disagree. If we bring fan factor into it (and you look at a limited portion of the season, roughly, August 5th but I don't remember exactly - be why you, winter whispers had finished the cycle and born to live forever had everything except the second category a game), and we also look at belle dame, as the top E.L.F. team in the box, if we account for CR (which has problems), the scores narrowed by roughly 40 points to be why you and belle dame.

If we account for fan factor instead of cr, the scores narrowed by closer to 50, and belle dame increased by more (relative to whispers and born to live forever) than be why you did.

That's just by using the opponent gate, which still allows for the opponent to randomly roll high - so if you ARE playing a lot of games (like the demons 41, or my 33), then you will get above average. You are still rewarded for playing a lot of games. But the gap still closed by that much, particularly compared to the box? That's very telling.

That's also before we account for TD and cas points.

A win is worth 10. Many of the games being counted for the top 2 teams (NOT counting the bonus points for shutouts or 5+ touchdowns) are giving more than 10 points for touchdowns and cas.

That means each of those games is literally as good as two games against a 'standard' opponent with 'standard' luck where each side has ~40-60% chance of winning.

That means, if one team is playing games like that, they only need 4 such games, and they effectively remove EVERYONE from the competition who doesn't play like that - including every box team, and every team who isn't built to score every 3 turns, all game long. (Including, for instance, the standard dark elf team who tries to play at all conservatively).

Winning needs to be more important than absolutely dominating your opponent, or winning means nothing. We could leave touchdowns and cas as they are, but I would double the baseline points, make draws worth 12, and make wins worth 25. That seems excessive to me, but would also work.


Last edited by Nelphine on Sep 08, 2019 - 01:58; edited 1 time in total
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2019 - 01:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Also note, I do think swampserpent IS what we want. He is absolutely leaving the forest and playing games.

My proposed changes don't noticeably affect his score (even bring it up a bit.)

What the changes do, is bring the top two teams down, drastically.
pizzamogul



Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2019 - 22:40 Reply with quote Back to top

9 new teams have joined up:
  • 1 Thoriin [ R] Can't be highier 228 244 High Elf 2019-08-29 14:42:37
  • 2 Archpeasant [ B] [B]lack Sun of Drolgoh 126 126 Dark Elf 2019-08-29 20:33:30
  • 3 PrivateNiCeGuY [ B] We put the PRO in team 126 126 Elven Union 2019-09-06 17:15:38
  • 4 PrivateNiCeGuY [ B] Equos Champions 129 129 Wood Elf 2019-09-06 17:15:51
  • 5 PrivateNiCeGuY [ B] Equos Defenders 177 177 Wood Elf 2019-09-06 17:16:23
  • 6 PrivateNiCeGuY [ B] Karond Kar All Blacks 125 139 Dark Elf 2019-09-06 17:17:22
  • 7 Bloodfeast [ B] Mount Raven Blackhearts 137 137 Dark Elf 2019-09-06 20:56:27
  • 8 DrClaes [ R] Synnful Masochists 122 128 Elven Union 2019-09-06 21:01:41
  • 9 Foad [L] Injury Time!!! 248 257 High Elf 2019-09-07 04:44:07

_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock
pizzamogul



Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 09, 2019 - 01:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not faulting anyone for playing really, really well according to how the rules are set up. But I have been feeling for a while that an elf team should be rewarded more for running into a "Legendary" sweet-spotter at the lower/mid levels in Black Box. Meanwhile, Ranked teams are rewarded too heavily for being able to find a near full Cycle of 2,000k + teams to play.

My thoughts from that same sELF reflection thread linked earlier: Here's what I want to see: beating a FF 15 team 2-1 with a couple casualties should yield more points than crushing/picking a new FF 9 team 5-0 with a pile of casualties.. Uber's idea of playing just to complete the Cycle is an interesting one, but I think most coaches want to have some sort of competition.

That "Fan Factor baseline" was a solution to the "Coach Rating + Team Rating" baseline that was simply a pain finding matches while following. Fan Factor worked well while it lasted I thought. We changed the Fan Factor as the Team Value baseline when CRP replaced LRB and fan factor was made less relevant/accurate. It might still work somewhat if it was listed on the Match Report; instead it's the Gate which I feel is just too random to use.

So the concept behind the current baseline was "more experienced teams ought be tougher matchups and yield more points." We even set up a Category B bonus for playing those teams once they'd gotten their full ClawPOMB on. Law of Unintended Consequences: Black Box teams simply don't grow as large as Ranked teams; when they do they have a really hard time finding a full set of cycle matches. Also, Piling On is gone.

What to do?

The data on the Match Report needs to be used. Unless Christer decided to add a team's record or the fan factor back, implement a "Team Rating" or add the Racial Coach Rating, we're sort of limited. The way Gate is implemented is just too random and the result doesn't necessarily reflect how well the team is coached.

That leaves us with the overall Coach Rating. This screws any League team seriously wanting to compete as CR isn't shown on League match reports. But if I were to implement CR as the next change I think it would go something like this:

Current Baseline would be thrown out; the size of the team(s) won't factor in any longer. The baseline would now be something like...
Rookie 0 points
Exp. 4 points
Vet. 8 points
Emerg. Star 12 points
Star 16 points
Super Star 20 points
Legend 24 points
Maybe the steps should each be 3 or 5 points? Have to keep in mind a 2-1 wins yields 1 point while a 5-0 yields 9 points and those 5-0 wins often are the result of more than a few casualties being inflicted.

Big questions: Would such a system allow a coach playing at Mid TV levels in the Box and still be able to compete for the Grand Championship? Would Ranked teams be duffed just enough by not having the higher TV 5-0 matches counting as quite as much? What are the long-term unintended consequences I'm not seeing?

Note: I currently don't have anyone to retool the Java scoring program. I'm looking into taking a class to learn Java coding myself so I could do it and not have to rely on the kindness of others, but I'm not sure what level of skill I need to reach to be able to pull it off.

_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock
pizzamogul



Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 09, 2019 - 01:07 Reply with quote Back to top

08 September 2019

Scores ELF season 68 starting 2019-09-06 ending 2019-10-31

Scores:
1 [R] woodland fawns - 116
2 [R] Be Why You - 104
3 [R] Sins And Punishment - 88
4 [R] Knights for Life - 80
5 [B ] Mount Raven Blackhearts - 67
6 [R] Middle Elves - 58
7 [R] Synnful Masochists - 57
8 [B ] Too fast and fragile - 54
9 [R] Lego World 3.0 - 52
10 [L] Injury Time!!! - 50

Black Box:
5 [B ] Mount Raven Blackhearts - 67
8 [B ] Too fast and fragile - 54
12 [B ] Coca Loca BBL - 41

League:
10 [L] Injury Time!!! - 50
18 [L] [NCBB] BYU Cougars - 14

Categories:
A Sins And Punishment (Dark Elf) - 62
B Knights for Life (High Elf) - 47
C Synnful Masochists (Elven Union) - 41
D Knights for Life (High Elf) - Moon Assassins (Dark Elf) - 33
E Be Why You (High Elf) - 41

Match Records:
Most TDs Knights for Life (High Elf) - Moon Assassins (Dark Elf) - CL Winner 2019 (Dark Elf) - 5
Most Cas Born To Live Forever (Wood Elf) - Be Why You (High Elf) - 5
Most Cas Against Sins And Punishment (Dark Elf) - 7
Highest Gate Knights for Life (High Elf) - 42000

Casualties Against:
1 Be Why You - 14
2 Sins And Punishment - 11
3 woodland fawns - 10
4 Born To Live Forever - 8
5 Mount Raven Blackhearts - 7
6 Too fast and fragile - 7
7 Knights for Life - 6
8 Valkyries of Myths Past - 6
9 Synnful Masochists - 4
10 Middle Elves - 3
11 Injury Time!!! - 3

Season LXVIII runs 06 September through 31 October, 2019.

Recruiting through 17 October 2019.

You can view the entire list of Cycles to date on the E.L.F Tournaments Tab.

_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 09, 2019 - 01:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Cheers for replying with your thoughts Pizza.

I wasn't really trying to finger anyone when I said the level of picking by some had gotten disgusting, but more point out that I feel the current scoring system just pushes people into overdrive by giving them further motive for what that could arguably be called "human nature".

And I quoted Uber's post from aeons past because I wanted to illustrate that E.L.F. as far as I can tell, was actually supposed to be about encouraging people to take harder games (compared to elfballing only anyway), not simply racking up points. The glory, as it were, was in challenging yourself as a coach.

I know I don't really need to tell you about Box because I know you've played it in plenty with elves (I used to see your team pop up in the ARR sprints as well). But as I said before, while I actually would appreciate a system that levels the playing field a bit - and it's never going to completely bridge the gap, simply because even just completing the cycle can take many, many more games in box depending on draws - box being level with R wasn't actually my intention with that post either.

I agree there's been some unforseen consequences here, the ruleset changes/status have resulted in some things that throw up problems for calculating E.L.F. scores:

1. No PO, reduced attrition means actually, extremely high TV games aren't necessarily any harder for elves who will have a bench and skilled players... in fact, there's an argument they're even easier because...

2. No wizards currently, and no spiralling expenses means there is very little punishment for flying high as an elven team. You will not be giving up a wizard to an opponent, and you will not be punished for flying to close to the sun in terms of lost earnings, and you can maintain your bench and TV for longer. This also means playing TV gap games is even more of a no-brainer in R if you can.

3. Other teams are also more likely to be higher TV as well, but as the TV of teams grow, past the 2m point, skills becomes less of an impact on the game (as everyone has them) and stats bear more heavily again. And Elves are blanket ag4. Effectively, as you grow more "bloated", teams matching you are not getting the same value for their TV unless they are rolling lots of stats.
Again this is hammered home even more if you are playing with a TV gap in your favour.

I'd argue, that right now, the bigger your team is, the easier your games are. And even the box stats would back me up in that too, since last i looked wood elves over 2.2m were winning 83% of their matches in the blackbox.

These issues within (caused by?) the ruleset are exasperated by a lower population on FUMBBL than in previous years, which means that even if people are not just actively seeking easy games, to get the cycle completed with the best scores, games are seen with the sort of TV gaps Tuamadre would be proud of (and usually the coaches who readily agree to this sort of game are rated at the level he'd play too).

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pizzamogul



Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2019 - 00:38 Reply with quote Back to top

One new team is in:
  • 1 PrivateNiCeGuY [L] Bajen Woods 156 156 Wood Elf 2019-09-09 08:44:49

_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock
pizzamogul



Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2019 - 01:06 Reply with quote Back to top

09 September 2019

Scores ELF season 68 starting 2019-09-06 ending 2019-10-31

Top Ten Scores:
1 [B ] Coca Loca BBL - 181
2 [R] woodland fawns - 116
3 [R] Be Why You - 111
4 [R] Sins And Punishment - 88
5 [L] Injury Time!!! - 85
6 [R] Knights for Life - 80
7 [B ] Mount Raven Blackhearts - 67
8 [R] Middle Elves - 58
9 [R] Synnful Masochists - 57
10 [R] Born To Live Forever - 56

Black Box:
1 [B ] Coca Loca BBL - 181
7 [B ] Mount Raven Blackhearts - 67
11 [B ] Too fast and fragile - 54

League:
5 [L] Injury Time!!! - 85
21 [L] Bajen Woods - 17
23 [L] [NCBB] BYU Cougars - 14

Categories:
A Coca Loca BBL (High Elf) - 120
B Knights for Life (High Elf) - 47
C Synnful Masochists (Elven Union) - 41
D Knights for Life (High Elf) - Moon Assassins (Dark Elf) - 33
E Be Why You (High Elf) - 42

Match Records:
Most TDs Knights for Life (High Elf) - Moon Assassins (Dark Elf) - CL Winner 2019 (Dark Elf) - 5
Most Cas Coca Loca BBL (High Elf) - 6
Most Cas Against Coca Loca BBL (High Elf) - 10
Highest Gate Knights for Life (High Elf) - 42000

Casualties Against:
1 Be Why You - 13
2 Sins And Punishment - 11
3 woodland fawns - 10
4 Coca Loca BBL - 9
5 Mount Raven Blackhearts - 7
6 Born To Live Forever - 7
7 Too fast and fragile - 7
8 Knights for Life - 6
9 Injury Time!!! - 5
10 Synnful Masochists - 4
11 Where the Shadows Lie - 4

Season LXVIII runs 06 September through 31 October, 2019.

Recruiting through 17 October 2019.

You can view the entire list of Cycles to date on the E.L.F Tournaments Tab.

_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock
pizzamogul



Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 10, 2019 - 23:57 Reply with quote Back to top

10 September 2019

Scores ELF season 68 starting 2019-09-06 ending 2019-10-31

Top Ten Scores:
1 [B ] Coca Loca BBL - 220
2 [R] Be Why You - 157
3 [B ] Mount Raven Blackhearts - 121
4 [R] woodland fawns - 116
5 [R] Sins And Punishment - 88
6 [L] Injury Time!!! - 85
7 [R] Knights for Life - 80
8 [B ] Too fast and fragile - 68
9 [R] Korando's Elite Eleven - 61
10 [R] Middle Elves - 58

Black Box:
1 [B ] Coca Loca BBL - 220
3 [B ] Mount Raven Blackhearts - 121
8 [B ] Too fast and fragile - 68

League:
6 [L] Injury Time!!! - 85
16 [L] West Bowl Swing - 38
26 [L] Bajen Woods - 17

Categories:
A Coca Loca BBL (High Elf) - 120
B Knights for Life (High Elf) - 47
C Mount Raven Blackhearts (Dark Elf) - 49
D Be Why You (High Elf) - 43
E Be Why You (High Elf) - 42

Match Records:
Most TDs Knights for Life (High Elf) - Moon Assassins (Dark Elf) - CL Winner 2019 (Dark Elf) - 5
Most Cas Coca Loca BBL (High Elf) - 6
Most Cas Against Coca Loca BBL (High Elf) - 10
Highest Gate Knights for Life (High Elf) - 42000

Casualties Against:
1 Coca Loca BBL - 18
2 Be Why You - 12
3 Sins And Punishment - 11
4 Mount Raven Blackhearts - 10
5 woodland fawns - 10
6 Too fast and fragile - 9
7 Korando's Elite Eleven - 8
8 Born To Live Forever - 7
9 Sampierdarkarena - 7
10 Knights for Life - 6

Season LXVIII runs 06 September through 31 October, 2019.

Recruiting through 17 October 2019.

You can view the entire list of Cycles to date on the E.L.F Tournaments Tab.

_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock
pizzamogul



Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 11, 2019 - 01:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Another idea for the baseline I've had is "# of matches played" in combination with "win %" of the opponent. I'm thinking this is a stat that could be quickly ascertained from glancing at the team page... "oh look, that's a team with over 100 games played and a winning record; I'll offer them a match." It's not a stat on the Match Report, but it could be scraped from the "Show Matches" tab on the team page (I'm assuming).

Something roughly along the lines of:

Record...
Losing record = 0 points.
Winning record = 10 points.

That 10 point spread would put a 5-0 beat down against a what may be and easier team in the same neighborhood point-wise as a 2-1 nail-biter win vs. a tougher opponent. Also, there would be glory (+ lots of points) in exposing a team with an inflated record... that feels very ELF-like to me. Maybe tweak a bit and give fewer points for "twice as many losses as wins" or more points for "twice as many wins as losses"?

# of Matches...
10 or fewer matches played = +0 points.
up to 50 matches played = +1 point.
50+ matches played = +2 point.
100+ matches played = +3 points.
250+ matches played = +4 points.
500+ matches played = +5 points.
1,000+ matches played = +6 points.

So there would be points available for playing more experienced teams; enough to encourage searching out such matches and reward eeking out a win in a difficult match up.

This would also put those Black Box teams that want to operate at a lower TV so they can finish a Cycle on a more equal footing with the Ranked teams running around at 2,000+ I'd hope.

I guess my vision has always been to have a league that rewards its coaches more for playing matches that Spectators would flock to see if they popped up on the Current Games list... like vs. a famous Ranked team or an Infamous Black Box min/maxer. "Hey everybody, X is playing Y right now! Come see!!!"

_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 11, 2019 - 10:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Would there be value in changing the scoring system so that Box teams are scored slightly differently than Ranked teams?

Since you cannot choose your opponent in the Box, perhaps you could complete the cycle without playing the stunty group. Perhaps incorporate group E into group D and allow 3 games from groups C&D. The scores would only go up for Box teams because they would be more likely to complete the cycle.
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