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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 21, 2019 - 23:37 Reply with quote Back to top

If it could be added to each league then each commish could handle it as they wish. Matt could then play it in his own league with like-minded people. You never know. It might be more popular.

Either way, it might not be too quick.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2019 - 15:37 Reply with quote Back to top

I can't create coaches, otherwise I would play in my own league with my house rules and I would not bother to discuss with people unable (deliberately or not) to grasp that automatic MM is the best (least unfair, if you prefer) way to arrange games.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2019 - 17:13 Reply with quote Back to top

"Best" is in the eye of the beholder. Clearly, not enough people agree with you for Christer to delete the Ranked division or the Gamefinder.

As for "fairest"...
TV is not accurate enough to be certain of "fair".
Inducements don't fully compensate for differences in the already inaccurate TV.
The Box does not currently take coach skill into account.

It is one thing to prefer it, but that doesn't make it "best" or "fairest".

You don't need to have a massive number of coaches for a Box to "work". Pandora's Box worked well enough on stuntyleeg.com.

A Box on any league would be a great option. Especially as the commishes could just kick out anyone they considered to be an arse.

It all depends on the amount of effort. Different leagues would want different options. e.g. minimum number of teams in draw, rookie protection, max TV difference, probably more.

And, how may leagues would really use it. What else is on the list of things to be done. What is happening with the javascript port? etc. etc.

It is a similar issue to Seasons. If commishes cannot tweak the options then they may well be better off doing it manually.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2019 - 17:37 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:

TV is not accurate enough to be certain of "fair".
Inducements don't fully compensate for differences in the already inaccurate TV.
The Box does not currently take coach skill into account.

TV is not accurate, I agree, but it's generally better to have a match between teams with same TV or very close. I never talked of "certain and perfect fairness", I said "least unfair", therefore better.
Inducements don't fully compensate, I agree, this is why I prefer to play matches with small TV differences and if you remember I suggested a TV gap cap in the past.
The Box doesn't take coach skill into account, well, nor Ranked does, and I see often matches in R with difference in terms of coach rank AND TV.
In the Box there might be a coach rank difference, but the TV gaps are generally lower (with the exception of low traffic time zone and monoactivations) and you can't choose a weak opponent/team/refuse matches you don't want to play.
By the way, it's open to debate whether a match must be played by coaches of same skill. For that, there should be hundreds or thousands of users, while to have a close TV gap there is no need to have hundreds of coaches, because a single coach can have many teams at different TVs.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2019 - 18:42 Reply with quote Back to top

right, but (ignoring coaching skill) differences in TV have virtually nothing to do with winning. playing big gaps is completely fine. however, differences in particular skills IS a big indicator of winning - and yes, that means if you don't want to look at the teams, that means large tv differences are somewhat more likely to have those differences in skills, but there really isn't a huge correlation.

the idea of playing with matched tv only matters if you assume both coaches know, and choose, the skills that are going to be relevant; which leads directly into coaching skill.

so if you think that 'it's generally better to have a match between teams same TV or very close', then you are already assuming coaching skill. If you then do not actually pay attention to skill, then all you're doing is saying 'hey look, i'm choosing to play one half of coaching skill such that if the other person isn't choosing the same thing, i'm going to win, because i'm not going to give the other person the option of playing way up or down in tv in order to allow inducements to make up for not having good team management skills'.

Using a matchmaker schedule without accounting for coach skill is absolutely cherrypicking, unless you ensure that everyone who also uses the matchmaking is aware of what skills are needed. It's not as obvious as the most notorious ranked games, but it's still there, particularly if you have a small player base.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2019 - 20:12 Reply with quote Back to top

In an open division, you can choose as fair a match as you like. If you think that a match is unfair, you don't have to accept it.

You can crush noobs just as easily as you can crush noobs in the Box. But in the Box they don't have the option to avoid you.

The Box is no "fairer"

I thought that you weren't going to argue this. Wink

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2019 - 20:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Noobs in GF can't judge the fairness of a match. Either they are not interested as long as they get quickly a game or they just can't evaluate it (not implying they are stupid, they maybe just want to have casual fun and mess around without too much concern for the outcome of the game).
If they were able to evaluate/interested in fair matches they would refuse the bad offers, yet I often see bad match-ups in R, both in terms of coach skill difference and TV difference.
The GF works in an ideal world were every coach can judge a match-up and is interested in a fair game.
In real world, noobs are preyed by the pickers and pickers dodge the bad offers.
So the blind matchmaking in the long run is fairer, because, if noobs can't dodge bad match-ups (a thing that they don't do anyway with a GF system as I explained) at least they can't be avoided when they have a good match-up (for example, noob coach with Dwarfs vs good coach with Amazons or noob monoactivating a high TV team vs good coach with underdog team and big TV difference).
Does the scheduler throw a bad match up sometimes? Yes, but over time, and with many games, the blind system is closer to the average in terms of win rate because the picking and dodging factors are removed from the equation.
If a coach really wants, with a GF system he never plays a bad match-up. With blind matchmaking he can't.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2019 - 20:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Picking a fair match isn't that difficult. The main thing is going to be CR. Even if you don't know anything at all about how teams & races stack up, you should be able to figure out that a legend is probably going to beat you. Wink

You could argue that Legend demanding everyone play Box is a picker demanding more cherrys.

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