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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 09:13
FUMBBL Staff
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I don’t think it’s a huge nerf. It might be a slight one, but probably more of a side-step. It does make them a little more interesting in NAF games though. UW were already decent under some of the newer rule sets that had more granular tiers. Skitter saw a lot of play, but having Loner on a 160k baller isn’t ideal. Being able to pick up a GR can only improve that, where Glart is available for your second hitter.

I don’t really have a problem with the changes, my main gripe is the motivation behind them rather than the changes themselves. I’m interested to see what they do with Pact as they don’t fit into this ‘what sprues do we have?’ model of designing teams.

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wallenstein



Joined: Dec 20, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 09:19 Reply with quote Back to top

They've already changed Pact for that edition (orc lino), it'd be crazy if they do it again so soon. Not saying they won't hei, they very well might, but it'd be crazy nonetheless Smile
det



Joined: Oct 01, 2017

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 09:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Now why didn't they at least give the UW new GR M on normals? I mean, it's the whole point of the team...meh...

Would it have been too good?? Hell no! You just lost a GSM blitzer...
Gnoblar



Joined: Mar 01, 2017

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 16:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I really really hate these UW changes. I like the idea of whacking a GR on there but in replacement of a Blitzer and a Thrower reduced to lineman no way. If he had M access on normal I would be buzzing but this just stinks of GW sprue laziness.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 16:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Skaven Gutter Runners get M with double, yet they are awesome.
Either you roll AG 5, nice, you have a super ball carrier who can later take Leap, or MA 10, nice, easy 1TTD (which is more gamechanging than having 2 Blitzers), or double to take Horns, Two Heads or Very Long Legs + Leap if no AG 5.
Would you play your Skaven team with 2 Blitzers and 3 Gutter Runners, or 1 Blitzers and 4 Gutter Runners?
The latter is best roster in my opinion.
And in case you were thinking I don't do it, my roster has 1 Blitzer and 4 Gutter Runners:
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=725147
Shushnik



Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 16:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Four gutter runners are more than four times better than one gutter runner. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

If you can only run one gutter runner and one blitzer OR two blitzers, the latter is better when those blitzers have M on normal rolls.

Yes, you can jigger a tournament roster that is OK because of stars. League teams cannot depend on getting stars and are significantly diminished.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 16:40 Reply with quote Back to top

I politely disagree about this:
"If you can only run one gutter runner and one blitzer OR two blitzers, the latter is better when those blitzers have M on normal rolls."
Normal M access doesn't make up for better statline: MA 9, AG 4, and even without any Mutation, Gutter Runners are great, ball carriers, one turners, and sackers if you want (well I have a killer Legend Gutter Runner https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=12618847 but it's not the most common build).
That said, I will try the UW roster with Gutter Runner once available on FUMBBL, because experience in game could be different from theory.
Without Piling On, Blitzers are not as killy, and you can blitz with just 1 on 2 per turn.
Since UW lacks Strength, it's hard to block with both of them every turn.
Ok they can have Guard, but UW is not a bash team. It's better if played like a pseudo-agile team, unless it can bully the opponent team (for example, if it's UW vs Elves UW can bash them, but most of teams outbash UW, no matter if 1 or 2 Blitzers, therefore having an AG 4 Gutter Runner to carry the ball and maybe 1TTD really helps).

Check my UW roster, it's pseudo-elven, with 2 Heads spam:
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=761139
Shushnik



Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 16:52 Reply with quote Back to top

A guard/two heads blitzer is critical to the team's long term success. A gutter runner does not fill that void and what it provides can be accomplished by a two heads/extra arms goblin. Even better, that goblin can be thrown.

If they had simply traded a thrower for a gutter runner I would be happy. Removing a blitzer is both terrible and incredibly lazy.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 16:53 Reply with quote Back to top

What about both of us playing UW in the Box and see which of our teams wins more?
You have just 2 UW games played on FUMBBL.

A Goblin is MA 6, a Gutter Runner MA 9, one turning with a Gutter Runner is way easier than by throwing a Goblin.
Shushnik



Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 16:56 Reply with quote Back to top

And getting through a wall of players is significantly easier with the goblin.

Each has their advantages. I agree that the gutter runner adds something. But that something is less than what the blitzer adds
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 16:57 Reply with quote Back to top

The MA 9 gutter runner just needs Leap + AG 5 or Very Long Legs, then he's stopped by snakes only.
A MA 6 Goblin, assuming he gets past a wall of players, won't go far.
Too slow.
Also, a Gutter Runner can pass the ball better than a Goblin, no Stunty, AG 4, more movement means shorter pass range.
With AG 5 he's a Thrower in disguise, so, multirole:
ball carrier/runner, thrower if needed, and one turner.
Impossible to perform all those duties as well with a Goblin or another UW player.
Shushnik



Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 17:09 Reply with quote Back to top

You're betting you can get doubles on that GR. I need no doubles for my goblin.

Or I might as well say a double move boosted goblin is super great.

Of course good skill rolls make powerful players. That's not the issue.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 17:11 Reply with quote Back to top

But your Goblin with regular rolls sucks, unlike a Gutter Runner with regular rolls: a GR Blodge, Side Step, Leap is a better ball carrier (and emergency thrower, and catcher if you want) than a Goblin, Goblin's default statline is crappy).
If you can't see that I think debate is impossible.
Also, on average a double or a stat boost will be rolled on a Gutter Runner, either +MA, +AG or a double is enough.
I have 3 Gutter Runner Legends, it's quite easy to skill them up with MVP nomination + TDs.
It's easier to make a good statline player great than a crappy statline player, the starting Goblin "chassis" is bad.
Shushnik



Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 17:29 Reply with quote Back to top

You don't exceed a 50% chance that you will roll a double or ag boost until the third roll, and then only just over 50%.

A block dodge sidestep gutter runner is great. If he survives that long.

I have twelve goblins to form into a two heads/extra arms ballcarrier. And replacements ready when they die.

Give me the blitzer to protect them. Every time.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 03, 2020 - 17:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Theoric talking is easy, playing is different.
I can show you 3 Gutter Runner Legends (2 still active), so, I think I know how to protect a Gutter Runner.
The only way to prove your theory is playing.
Make a Box UW team and build your Goblin ballcarrier, I will build my Gutter Runner when available.
We'll compare the win rates.
That's the scientific way to see who is right. Smile


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 03, 2020 - 19:30; edited 1 time in total
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