Skrofler
Joined: Aug 16, 2005
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 Posted:
Aug 27, 2005 - 22:28 |
 
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Hey, BigMac!
Nazmek (5 3 3 9 - DP, block, tackle, pass block) isn't an inflated fouler. He's a good defender who happens to have one mostly useless skill. It just depends on how you use him. So what if he's got one useless skill? Would a 10 SPP lineman with block be a better asset to the team?
Anyway, an orc or human team usually has enough money to replace any player. It would be a small matter just to give DP to the next fresh lineman that comes along so you can retire the old one. |
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vanGorn
Joined: Feb 24, 2004
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Aug 27, 2005 - 22:36 |
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Some stunty teams are full of dirty players with many skills. A bit exaggerated perhaps. |
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tautology
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 28, 2005 - 00:53 |
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| Quote: |
tautology wrote:
It used to be the case that fouls could earn star player points and the result was that every team had 3 DPs or more.
It was silly and reduced the game to "who can roll more cas more quickly."
It is also extremely detrimental to a perpetual league like FUMBBL as teams had a hard time living past ten games or so. And you can forget about playing games at the higher TRs (220+) as no one can get above that level and stay there for long.
Fouls should not earn SPPs, and frankly DP should be reduced to a +1 so that it matches mighty blow.
There are some good ideas out there about increasing the consequences of fouling when "the eye" is on you as well which would still allow tactical fouling but would discourage the "foul you every turn until your team is destroyed" strategy which, while currently valid, makes for a lousy and boring game.
did you even read the posting?
no.
else you would not feel the need to tell me what it used to be, when i explicitly refer to how it used to be!
for you, in short: if fouling would earn SPP, it would be HARDER, not easier to use it effectively.
as to your comments on fouling and uhuh how nasty it is and you wanna reduce dp to be useless: erm no.
Get the ref needs to be fixed, agreed.
And making fouls earn SPP, hence make expert foulers inflate tr and even age just as expert blitzers, would make fouling a less effective strategy.
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I certainly respect your right to have an opinion, but the difference between your opinion and mine is that mine is based on the factual experience of having played in many leagues where fouling gave you SPPs for casualties.
In those leagues, DP was rampant and excessive fouling for gaining SPPs ruined the game.
Your opinion is based on the conjecture that for some reason things would be different this time.
People chose DP and fouled every turn BECAUSE it earned SPPs.
By your argument, people will stop blitzing with their Claw/RSC beastman because they are afraid of gaming SPPs.
I can understand your argument in theory, but in practice things turn out to be quite a bit different. |
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keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
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Aug 28, 2005 - 01:01 |
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Im not reading everything here, actually very little. I am only going by what the Topic says. Fouling ssp is stupid. There I said it. I am not against fouling, but when you have fouling ssp there is a different attitude that doesnt go over well in my mind. Besides Dreadclaws teams would be ugly. |
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CorporateSlave3
Joined: Feb 07, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 28, 2005 - 01:49 |
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While it is true that removing SPP from fouls was only a step in the 'right direction,'* reversing it would not fix anything. As was mentioned earlier, it would pwn for teams like Khemri, Necro, and Undead, who have easy DP linemachines in their 30K skeleton/zombies. The theory that ageing and increased TR would somehow negate the advantage of having a DP falls off here, as they would just give every lineman DP, and retire them without at thought after a couple of skills (unless they no doubt rolled +ST +ST for their next two skills). Always 16 man roster, always 5 or 6 Dirty Players, without ever having any age or even add more than a couple extra TR points. And suppose your DP skilled up very well, say the aforementioned +ST +ST. Rather than foul with him, you'd have an extra Mummy and a new rookie DP to do what you'd mentioned earlier as the entire problem with DP - foul without risk of losing a decent player.
Basically you'd have a nearly constant cycle of the 'problematic' expendable DP rookies as well as some hideously well developed Dirty Players that won't be fouling much anymore, unless one Gets the Ref, or you are in a very tight spot. I'd never play anything but an Undead type team again. You'd even most likely be getting your new rookie free every match, as one of the other 4 or 5 RIP's an opponent in a foul.
Blood Bowl would (necessarily) descend into every match being a Wuhanesque fouling match - since every lineman WILL have Dirty Player as their first skill. Anyone who passes on Dirty Player for a lineman's first is a blind idiot if they're getting SPP for those fouls. Heck, prolly only be 2 or 3 games before they get their next skill. I can't imagine you didn't see this happening when you were playing 3rd edition? Every freaking team in our league had multiple DP, every lineman type got it as their first skill, period, and a helluvva lotta teams were retired in record time. It was a downward spiral. You took DP because it was the best way to advance a lineman. Your opponent took it for the same reason. In order to advance said lineman, you therefore fouled as much as you could. Your opponent did for the same reason. You always fouled with the rookiest linemen first, so that if they did get kicked you'd keep your more developed ones - plus the rookies needed those cas more anyway. Some opponents tried to be 'clever' and let you foul all your linemen off while they skilled thiers up with Block / Dodge / Guard / Whatever. Those were the coaches who had a new team every two weeks. They eventually started playing with two teams so they could go right on when (not if - when) one team got retired. In the end, they all started taking DP as first skill for linemen. Sometimes first for positionals as well. Heck, fastest way to get a Black Orc up there in SPP. Trollslayers too. You know Blitz-Ra's would be getting it.
And who would care if they aged? You've got 7 more to keep up the arms race. Was it a really great player? +ST +AG with two doubles rolls? Guess what - he'd have aged pretty quick anyway, as you were no doubt using him for all sorts of stuff by now. Sure, he didn't use that DP so much anymore, but he had plenty of rookies to take care of that angle of things.
And now, to make the dreaded 'real life' comparison - who the smeg do you think the 'dirty players' on real football teams are? I had two friends from Spain in high school, and they used to play football (I would call it soccer). They always said that certain teams were known for equipping one of their worst players with screw off plastic cleats with the illegal metal ones underneath. After inspection, he'd take them off and head out on the field, where he would rake the calf of the opposing star. Sure, he'd get kicked, maybe for a couple of games even. But the opponent would be out their star footballer with the injury. No player with any ability would be the one doing the cleating. No coach (no matter how dirty) with a brain would let a decent player foul. But if they had some sure fire way to make a star out of a promising rookie, and that way involved him cleating a few opponents on the way, you can be sure they'd be doing it - until that player got good and then the next rookie would be handed the spiky shoes...in our high school Cross Country races we ran into plenty of teams who'se slowest guys would sprint out at the star to 'kick back' their spikes into the other teams' top runners.
All the 'solution' of giving fouls SPP would acomplish is skilling up linemen very quickly on all teams. It would not make it any harder to use Dirty Players. It would just mean (nearly) every player would eventually have a skill he didn't use. But there would always be that rookie (or two, or three or more) with Dirty Player only to take his place as the team's expendable 'foul fodder'.
*by 'right direction' I of course am, for the sake of arguement here, assuming that taming down fouling is the 'right direction' |
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MRnobody
Joined: Jul 01, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 28, 2005 - 02:00 |
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i played back when spp were awarded for fouls. and when DP, claw, rsc and MB all worked together on a foul. here's the story. (not on fumbbl)
i played humans. i had a thrower who completioned his way to DP. he got mighty blow soon after. he then became an amazing thrower, and after he threw the ball he started to increase my opps' turnover rate. the point is, he was a glorified lineman with all the best skills and fouled as a bonus.
every player i got (except thae main scorers) took DP as the first skill in order to have a steady spp flow.
I played a noob dwarf team (with a noob team) and at end of game, he rolled doubles, or +MA or something. he didn't even care about the roll, he didn't even need to roll. no matter what the outcome was, he was taking DP. hell, if i rolled double 6's, i'd STILL take DP first in his position.
the point: you see DP as a strategy to win. i doo too. but if fouling generated SPP, it's no longer only a strategy to win, it's a way to get spp for my team. in this case i'd foul every turn i could even if i got kicked out on a 2+ IGMEOY roll. in such a game, getting my players kicked out would also be the best way to keep them alive.
in short: the foolball becomes quite irrelevant. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 28, 2005 - 11:32 |
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Let us take the Black Orc Blocker. Let us check out how many cas he hits per match. Let's say it's about... half a cas per match. If you're LUCKY.
How many can a Dirty Player get per match? One foul first half, two or three fouls in the second. Plus he'll probably be blocking a lot as well (he's still a BOB). Let's say two cas per game.
So now I'll give my Black Orc Blocker Dirty Player as his first skill, to get him to Block + Guard sooner.
I'm at 6 SPPs now. To get to 16, with Block, at half a cas per match, will take 10 matches. To get to 31, with DP at two cas per match, will take 7 or 8 matches. And after that if I wanted to get him mighty blow as well, why I'll just keep fouling every now and again, most likely in turn 15 (when I'm stalling) or 16 (when I'm not). Hell, if I have total pitch domination I'll foul to high heaven strating in 13, with any player that needs SPPs.
Sure, my TR will be higher. But I'll be damned if I don't get my players skilled a damn sight faster. And even though I care, coach John Doe who likes blood and thinks that getting players skilled is more important than good team building (face it, 75% of all coaches out there if not MORE) does not care. Meaning we'll see an exponential rise in the amount of Dirty Players and in the amount of end-of-game fouls. Because hey, you're getting SPPs, right? Furthermore, if I'm playing in a league, who cares if my TR is at 200 after 7 matches? The other suckers will be at 150 still. So I cop a few handicaps. I still have a better team. (At the very least my Black Orcs are ahead by a couple of matches.)
Though your argument is valid, BigMac, and I certainly see your point, it's also fundamentally flawed as it fails to take into account the nature of the average coach.
See MRNobody's excellent point above. |
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spelledaren
Joined: Mar 06, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 28, 2005 - 11:40 |
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Fouling giving spp - I would kick kick kick and then kick again. Every every turn!
So that's your problem with it.
And I remember the horrors of it from old days, where the top stars were the 4-5 dirty players in the league that were most successful (and not dead, yet!) |
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