Skolopender
Joined: Jun 17, 2006
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 Posted:
Feb 26, 2007 - 16:06 |
 
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Question: Does people think this rule change, will contribute to the otherwise pretty relaxed and friendly community that fumbbl.com is?
In my soon 12 years of knowing Blood Bowl, I'm still waiting on a coach enforcing the 4 min. rule in a tabletop game. It hasn't happened to me and I have never done it. Even though it is stated in the rules... If you stand around a table playing the game, I have never heard anyone complain when a guy had to go to bathroom... Or said "you got 2 mins and 24 seconds to do it or you loose turn"...
I remeber playing both ranked, Smack and Faction games that were extremly competitive where we talked through the entire game and turns took a lot of time. But no one cared because it was fun... Enforcing the turn limit doesn't make the game more comepetitive... It takes away the relaxing element where you could hang up clothes or wash dishes in the opponents turns. Or you could say brb my daughter just woke up. And there has been no issues up until now in all the games I have played... So how I use fumbbl will effectively change... No more ranked or faction for me... (as long as this rule is in effect) This rule prevents me from really enjoying it and can't be fitted with my real life. And as Jan stated earlier... Unranked isn't the main league, so not that many games to get. (Yet... this might change) So that isn't a real option either... So i'll just play in a league with my friends and stay on the sideline for a while... And to see what happens.
I hope the best for fumbbl and the people in the community... Because it is massive fun, but this isn't in the spirit of the site in general... IMO.
My 2 cents... |
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Last edited by Skolopender on %b %26, %2007 - %16:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Raist1222
Joined: Feb 05, 2006
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:07 |
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I love the new rule...but i dont think i have ever gone over 4 minutes even with bathroom breaks, doorbell, phone calls or what have you. This is intended to be a competitive game and as such a time limit should be enforced, if you really can't stand it than just leave. Part of the game is that you have to make your decisions quickly thus creating mistakes that otherwise would not have been made, as in competitive chess matches. And as Christer said if it is really that important to you then just reload. |
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Raist1222
Joined: Feb 05, 2006
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:11 |
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And in regards to Lag, i have dial-up internet and have yet to lag what so ever...you guys must have terrible connections.  |
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BlackNWhiteDog
Joined: Feb 05, 2006
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:11 |
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Oventa
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:11 |
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Well so I continue to be active
Thanks for detailed explanation and making this thread and having this discussion
Although I did not need the explanation.
I read the news, I read the readme and understood all perfectly well.
I know toilet and beer breaks are no issues.
It is the events not controlled by myself that are the issues:
-minor issue:
I have to watch opponents turn ALL the time, cause I might miss the start of my turn.
-larger issue:
It does not need a burning cat to take a few minutes away from you. A door ring, a wife wanting you to fetch her something, a child that is just crying or telephone call is enough.
And I admit something like that occours at my home on average once per game.
And competitive games in Ranked ARE decided with one good or bad turn, that's my opinion.
So yes one of my 16 turns will take more than 4 minutes and the other 15 turns probably 2min.
That IS a problem for me
So then my opponent has the same problems and I end up in reloading twice per game.
(Btw. did I mention I hate Reloading? Only reason I opened the port in my router to play direct.)
That is if I find a "friendly guy", that reloads not because of an emergency but a simple door bell ...
So those are my two cents for consideration. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:11 |
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| SeraphimRed wrote: | Of course... reloading isn't very reliable in my (and my opponents experience) and often delays the game quite a bit to get everything right again.
EDIT::
koadah - never said it wasn't a way to prevent missing a turn, just that it actually makes a game slower regardless of how long that may or may not be. |
I think the quotes are correct now.
Reloading is a pain though. |
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Russo
Joined: Apr 11, 2006
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:15 |
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| JanMattys wrote: |
I take this is aimed at me.
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No Jan, I was aiming it at a collective of people, I started writing this before your post hit the screen, as I am at work i sometimes take a while to finish a post due to interuptions.
I was not aiming to insult you as that is not my style, I appreciate your feelings and I think that you are assuming that Unranked will remain as it has. I have a strong feeling that over then next few months there maybe a swelling off play in unranked by "osmosis". I think that most coaches are over-exagerating the likly impact of the timelimits and that after 1 month the feelings will be amicable.
The comment about the "quitting" was aimed more at those irc comments I saw last night and 2 forum posts earlier where a coach was abusive of Christer for the changes. Whilst you have strong feelings I have not seen you attack Christer personally and I have always appreciated your comments in the past.
Please accept my apologies and i did not mean to offend you personally. I just do not like people attacking a "free" institution like they paid 30% of there wages towards it. Christer has never shown any self-interest in how he applies the "rules" and he has demonstrated remarkable consistancy.
Peace man, no ill-will intended!! |
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[21:35] <@Purp|away> why is it whenever I come to check the PC, Russo is lowering the tone?! 
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[22:59] <princevaliant> ty Russo 
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Gebannus
Joined: Apr 14, 2006
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:19 |
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I'm 100% in favour of keeping it.
It's the official rules, it's stops people from taking 10 minute turns, and it would be a shame to let skijunkie's latest feature go to waste. |
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PhrollikK
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:20 |
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It is disturbing how easily long time members, or indeed members of this "great" community are alienated because of a bogus rule. IMO the rule, in theory, is sound but in practice serves no real purpose. To date I have yet to play a game where I would even want to consider using this option. Now I'm forced to do so and am appalled at how it was/is being presented. Having a kid wake up in the middle of the night would have screwed many a game for me, and now probably will. This just for the sake of reigning in the <1% that take their time in planning their turns.
The massive outcry is a result of very many members feeling controlled for no reason and I share that sentiment. The problem with ppl leaving the community because of differences of opinion is that you never get to hear why they did so, a so called dark statistic. I applaud all the nonchalance shown to members voicing their opinion on the matter.
This message was written while carriyng a baby... |
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Pmg
Joined: Nov 24, 2003
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:25 |
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So one more LRB4 rule has been implemented.
Perfect.
Hope we don't get this mess every time Sky tries to implement more handicaps (oh my god, i will not play due to that handicap i really don't like), OFAB working properly (oh my god, i'll never play my vamps again), or anything else.
It's a Blood Bowl rule, everyone has to live with it. You don't like it, play with your own house rules or move to China (quoting homer simpson).
Congrats for one more programming effort, all the hard work and thank's for all the fish. Christer and Sky clearly are my heroes. |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:29 |
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My thoughts:
First of all, i do feel as though i am one of the faster coaches so this rule will not likely affect me personally. Second of all.... i don't play slow coaches and generally don't play complete noobs. Therefor, it is unlikely to affect my games. This will be the 95% of my games.
My one fear is that the other 5% of the times, there is no discretion. Look at it like this....
I have had games against Pizzamogul and Texan (2 of my favorite coaches to play against) where they have had to run REALLY quick and deal with a child (if i remember correctly... pizzamogul's kids found the joy of peeling kitchen laminate  )
Trog, another person i enjoy playing, has had to leave really quickly to handle an admin thing. So there are legitimate uses when this new feature is less than optimal.
Now don't get me wrong.... someone who takes four minutes to actually move through a turn deserves it. Thats why it should be a choice for the opposing coach.
Tournies on the other hand........ should be auto. This rule gives us a chance to really differentiate tourney matches from regular ranked matches. Above all else.... this should be the number one consideration in enacting the new rule policy. It makes tourney games that more important and pressure filled. Applying it accross the spectrum is a wasted chance to highlight the difference between a competitive ranked match (where taking more than 4 minutes leaves you at the mercy of your opponent's discretion) and a tourney match (where you better have the rest of your life on hold cos 4 mins is it!).
Sincerely,
__Synn |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:34 |
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| Quote: | | You apologize to your opponent who is wondering what happened to you, and explain that you had a minor emergency at the house.. Being a friendly guy, your opponent understands, and you reload the .dat savefile, allowing you to start your turn from the beginning, giving you your 4 minutes. |
... surely reloading to redo an in game event is against the rules as they are currently written. |
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phubar
Joined: Jan 17, 2007
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:37 |
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I am in favor of enforcing the limit, but there are several issues that still need to be addressed, in my opinion.
Two specific suggestions I want to offer:
1) Turn-overs. If I'm sitting here desperately needing to run off to the restroom and trying to get all my players moved so I can not click on the end-of-turn button and run to the bathroom... well, suffering a turn-over would end my turn prematurely, preventing me from taking a much-needed leak. So, IMHO, if the turn limit is being enforced, a turn-over should put up a pop-up dialog saying "You've just suffered a turn-over, cick 'Ok' to end your turn." That would let me run off to the restroom before handing the timer over to my opponent.
2) Chat. The game certainly loses a lot if you can't chat with your opponent while it is going on. Under the current implementation, chat comments very quickly scroll off the event screen. That means if you are chatting with your opponent, you have to respond immediately to keep the flow of conversation going. This, of course, cuts into your 4-minute limit... which is bad because it will reduce the ability to chat. And an unscrupulous opponent can pester you with chat to try to distract you and make your turn run over.
My suggestion to improve this would be to move chat to a seperate window from the events window. That way, you can focus on playing your turn during your 4 minutes. When you are done moving your players, all your opponent's chat comments will still be visible, and you can respond to them at your leisure. (Ideally, the chat window would remain accessible under a turn-over popup if that is implemented.)
For now, players with sufficient computer resources can chat in IRC instead of in the chat window - but that loses a lot due to having to switch back and forth between applications, and because spectators can't see the chat.
-phubar
Edit: I would also be strongly in favor of keeping it purely optional on for another 2 weeks or so, to give coaches a chance to test it out for themselves in matches of less importance. Turning it on for the most important matches - without giving coaches a chance to practice with it in play - seems quite harsh. I'd rather give people an opportunity to try it in unimportant games and give feedback based on that, and then turn it on by default after giving consideration to said feedback. I suspect that right now there is a lot of panic over being forced to play important games without knowing, fully, what to expect. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:44 |
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| Britnoth wrote: | | Quote: | | You apologize to your opponent who is wondering what happened to you, and explain that you had a minor emergency at the house.. Being a friendly guy, your opponent understands, and you reload the .dat savefile, allowing you to start your turn from the beginning, giving you your 4 minutes. |
... surely reloading to redo an in game event is against the rules as they are currently written. |
1- True
2- It's nice to see that Christer talks about reloading when he perfectly knows reloading a) creates problems more often than not and b) is not a feature mastered by noobs. Try teaching a noob how to reload (especially when you're italian, he's german, and the english of both is not perfect)... talking about quick games...
3- It's nice to hear in chat about Fumbbl Staff using the "if you don't like it leave" winning card on those who try to comment to make the game better. |
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Unstoffe
Joined: Aug 22, 2004
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Feb 26, 2007 - 16:46 |
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Well, I don't like to complain, but I have to on this one. Plenty of good reasons have already been posted, what I'm thinking is the situation, common in my experience, of my opponent saying 'brb' at the start of my turn.
Previously, I'd wait for him to get back before moving. Only polite to let him watch yeah? But now my clock is running down... so really I have to start, playing - except, what if my first action, I roll snakes, and suddently it's his turn, and his clock is running? What if he gets back with 10s to play in? He's going to be annoyed, I'll be guilty, are we going to be having a fun friendly game?
OK, there's a workaround, we can reload, and sure I will do that, generally I find it's a pain to get working though, often adding 10 or 20 minutes to game time when we have to do it. Again, fun?
It's laudable to want to stick to the rules as closely as possible, but in this case, the rule simply isn't clear enough for this sort of rigid enforcement to be a good idea. To pick the most important point, the rules don't say whether the clock can be stopped, and under what circumstances. So, what we have implemented, where the clock can stop, but only for 'other player's thinking time', is effectively a house rule. Why just this, and not also 'either player's getting beer time'?
Again, the rules don't say when the 4 minutes start. What we have is, 'when the previous turn ends, if it ends on a dice related turnover, otherwise as and when the other player says'. Pretty weird when you think about it...
Well, I shan't stop playing, maybe I'll play a bit of stunty now which could be a good thing. Count this as a vote against though... |
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