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Poll
Would you like this new rule?
Yes, it's worth a try
7%
 7%  [ 32 ]
No, but i would like some other way to prevent elfbowling
6%
 6%  [ 28 ]
I don't like elfbowling, but i don't think we can do anything about it
18%
 18%  [ 79 ]
Elbowling is fine
66%
 66%  [ 280 ]
Total Votes : 419


Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:20 Reply with quote Back to top

spacebobo wrote:
First of all, what exactly are you trying to prevent? A team playing only soft games, or a team playing only elves? In your distorted view of things, the two seem to be the same thing. There are hoards of soft av9 teams that are less threatening than many elf teams. It's not hard at all to cherrypick soft teams that most people play in a bashy style. Thus, your "solution" of putting a cap on the number of elf games one can play, doesn't address the alleged problem at all.


Good point, and i agree with you. It doesn't solve the problem completely. But i can't think of any better way to address it. If you have one that would be easy to implement, i would be glad to hear it.

spacebobo wrote:
Second, you aren't really convincing me that there is a problem at all. Click the Tournaments button and look at the strongest team in the LC. The one that is about 30 TS and TR higher than everyone else. Does it look like he "elfbowled"? How about one of the strongest teams from the last 2 tournaments? I'm not really sure who you are crying about. It's obviously possible to build powerhouse 300 TR teams while playing all races, as evidence by the above 2 examples. Show me the elfballing team that has an "unfair advantage" over them.


I'm going from the information (which could be wrong) that elf teams have won four consecutive majors. Also, the Fumbbl Cup page says that the rules of the Fumbbl Cup are changing this year, making it straight KO, which should hopefully, it says, make it harder for elves to win. So it seems that there is indeed a problem. And i've been hearing left and right that "it would be nice to see non-elves win for a change".

In the LC link you provided, 7 of the 13 teams listed were elves.

Sure, it's easier for AV9 teams to get to high TR without too many injuries. That's how those teams were designed. To compensate for that, they're not as good at some other aspects of the game.

The problem is that, by design, elf teams shouldn't be able to reach such high TR without suffering many injuries. By design, they should be trying to compete with fewer players, barely managing to stay afloat, but compensating by having fewer players. But elfbowling lets them have the cake and eat it too.

spacebobo wrote:
Finally, forcing people to play (or not play) certain races is flawed. Why do you care how other people choose to have fun?


Why is there a TS limit? Why not let people play against any TS they want? What if someone's idea of fun is to constantly play against teams 60 TS above them, for the extra challenge, why should we care how they choose to have fun?

Why is there a limit on how many games you can play against a single coach? What if there are 3 or 4 coaches that you really like, and would like to play against them more often? Why shouldn't you be allowed to do that?

Yet those rules exist, for balance among other things.


By the way, thanks for presenting good points and taking the time to articulate them well.
Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Pirog wrote:
I wouldn't want to see such restrictions in Ranked, but maybe the major tournaments could have some demands for teams to apply.


This is a great idea! In fact, i like it way better than my original proposal.

This way, we can have the best of both worlds. People can play any team they want if they want to play for fun, but competitive coaches entering majors enter a fair arena. I love it!

Pirog wrote:
The problem is of course how to balance and control it. To monitor when people cherrypick or not. There will be coaches that find ways to avoid any such limitations by spending several weeks looking for a bashy team in bad need of a recovery and things like that, so I'm not sure that this idea would be practically possible to implement.


I agree, it's not perfect, but a simple thing like forcing at least 50% of games played against non-elves would be better than nothing at all, wouldn't it?

It would at least preclude teams that play 95% of their games against elves in an effort to powergame their way into majors.
shadow46x2



Joined: Nov 22, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:33 Reply with quote Back to top

always amuses me that the majority of times that people come on here crying about changes that need to happen, it's always preceded by a butt-whooping....

good luck in ever getting something like this approved....christer has already made his viewpoints clear...

oh and for the record zombie....

i'm a member on this site as well as you...i'll comment on any forum thread i feel like....again...

go cry...

--j

_________________
origami wrote:
There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet.

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Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:35 Reply with quote Back to top

The reason elf teams keep winning the majors is not in elfballing. The reason is wizards. Elf teams will win a balanced matchup against a good bashing coach by blasting away the cage once per match with the Wizz.

Other than that the elf teams do NOT overpower the bashy ones.

The only point you may have is that because the big elf teams tend to play amongst eachother the bashers are not designed to take out a hoard of blodge-sidesteppers, simply because they tend to play other bashers who don't have a lot of dodge, which means they have too few tackles to cope. That on the other hand is the choice of the bashy teams coaches.

If you truly believe that any team, from any race can reach and win a major without deliberately building up towards the tournament you are deluded. And thinking that limiting peoples ability to play and have fun as they wish is a good idea you're plain and simply nuts.

_________________
Proud owner of three completed Ranked grids, sadly lacking in having a life.
Shrap



Joined: Sep 18, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:38 Reply with quote Back to top

You should check out my post on cherry picking which is a much bigger problem than what you're talking about.
Please feel free to add you 2 cents to my post as it's not too old and we had a good dialog going in it.
Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Cloggy wrote:
The reason elf teams keep winning the majors is not in elfballing. The reason is wizards. Elf teams will win a balanced matchup against a good bashing coach by blasting away the cage once per match with the Wizz.


I agree the wizard certainly is a factor. But ask yourself this : could the elves afford the wizard if they needed to spend all their money replacing dead and injured players?
Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Zombie69 wrote:
Cloggy wrote:
The reason elf teams keep winning the majors is not in elfballing. The reason is wizards. Elf teams will win a balanced matchup against a good bashing coach by blasting away the cage once per match with the Wizz.


I agree the wizard certainly is a factor. But ask yourself this : could the elves afford the wizard if they needed to spend all their money replacing dead and injured players?


Yes, they could. Just the same as the bashers can afford to hire stars all the time. Everybody builds towards majors qualifiers, not just elfs.

_________________
Proud owner of three completed Ranked grids, sadly lacking in having a life.
Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, personally i don't think elves could build up to that point without elfbowling. In my experience, an elf team that will play against all races will never be able to collect that much money, and they will even have a hard time making enough money to replace dead and injured players. They will end up heading into the tournament either full of perms, or with too few players to present a challenge.


Last edited by Zombie69 on Sep 20, 2007 - 09:09; edited 1 time in total
Zombie69



Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Shrap wrote:
You should check out my post on cherry picking which is a much bigger problem than what you're talking about.
Please feel free to add you 2 cents to my post as it's not too old and we had a good dialog going in it.


We can agree to disagree, but i believe cherry picking to be a lesser problem. Why? Because for cherry-picking, you need an aggressor and a victim. If people just stop being victims and start refusing those games, problem solved.

For elfbowling however, you have 2 elf teams who both gain by playing each other as often as possible. So without a rule to keep it in check, it will just proliferate to the point where elf teams win 4 majors in a row.
Pirog



Joined: Jul 13, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:50 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the main problem which is currently unfixable is that LRB4 doesn't seem to be intended for long term team builds.

From what I have heard this is dealt with in LRB5, so as long as we play by the current rule set I think it will be a problem that is hard to deal with.

If more available TR capped tournaments get going in Ranked it would be good though, for us who don't like the aspect of just building a team with no real purpose for it.
Chiungalla



Joined: Sep 22, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
Good point, and i agree with you. It doesn't solve the problem completely. But i can't think of any better way to address it. If you have one that would be easy to implement, i would be glad to hear it.


Are you a politician?
Finding a problem, don't know how to solve it for good, but take an action that is not able to solve it to do something on the problem, looks much like the way politicians spending there days.

Quote:
I'm going from the information (which could be wrong) that elf teams have won four consecutive majors.


And you had the wrong idea, that this is because of elfbowl. It isn't.

Elfs are unbalanced good in winning tournaments.
That is all, and that is a problem to be solved by Games Workshop not by Fumbbl.

Elfs can come to high TR and TS even if they play hard opponents. It's something about stochastics.

And that is simply untrue:
Quote:
The problem is that, by design, elf teams shouldn't be able to reach such high TR without suffering many injuries.


They are, by design, able to reach high TR.
Even if they play bashy teams. It may only be unlikely to happen. But with some thousand coaches around, you will always have some highest TR Elfs for the next major-title around.
It is a simple matter of stochastics.

And if one will survive with his 280+ Darkies till the next major, and apply for it, he has a greater chance to win it, then the 280+ Orcs, Chaos or Dwarfs.

A ban on elfbowl would solve no problem, but it will reduce the overall fun and the number of games played on fumbbl.[/quote]


Last edited by Chiungalla on Sep 20, 2007 - 08:57; edited 1 time in total
Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Zombie69 wrote:
Well, personally i don't think elves could build up to that point without cherrypicking. In my experience, an elf team that will play against all races will never be able to collect that much money, and they will even have a hard time making enough money to replace dead and injured players. They will end up heading into the tournament either full of perms, or with too few players to present a challenge.


Now you're confusing cherrypicking and elfballing......

Cherrypicking with elves would be to play basher without bashing skills. Pretty certain win and no damage.

The thing is, you seem to be misinterpreting some of the facts here.

1. There is an E.L.F. league where some of the more active teams DO play all races. Some of them actually get quite nice TS.
2. If you scrutinise the games the bashy qualificants played previous to their you will mostly see they had their own little string of few CAS against games. Just luck you think? Or perhaps building up?

I have pretty much given up on playing majors myself because I don't have time to play enough to build uber teams and/or suck too much to get out of games without damage and/or pick games that are too damaging. Your pick.

But saying that this is purely an elfballing problem is just the wrong angle. Is it powergaming? Yes it is, but that has been discussed to death in other threads. You fail to convince me that elfballing is a problem.

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Proud owner of three completed Ranked grids, sadly lacking in having a life.
kwèk



Joined: Nov 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 08:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Zombie69 wrote:
Guys, it's a mod who suggested i make this thread. So let it be and let's see what OTHERS have to say.



That moderator got you by the balls.
By the balls I tell you... mouhahahaha
lord_real



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Pah! Bashers dodge games exactly as much as elfs do.
I have tried playing only other bashers with my orc team http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=282228
But I often get complaints like (Oh no my khemri wont play you since you got -AG on one of your BlackOrcs, that makes your TS ALOT lower than it actually is).

That Orc team have been turned down by STRONGER (TS wise) khemri, Orc and even dwarf teams.
And that team is not that strong. Its an regular Orc team.

Some people just dodge games. Regardless if they play pro-elf or khemri.
Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 09:04 Reply with quote Back to top

lord_real wrote:
Pah! Bashers dodge games exactly as much as elfs do.
I have tried playing only other bashers with my orc team http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=282228
But I often get complaints like (Oh no my khemri wont play you since you got -AG on one of your BlackOrcs, that makes your TS ALOT lower than it actually is).


That is FUNNY. If this ever happens again just point out the TS value for the other 2 skill BoB and ask them where the difference is Laughing

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Proud owner of three completed Ranked grids, sadly lacking in having a life.
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