FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Chiungalla

Joined: Sep 22, 2004

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:01

Quote:

I believe the word you're looking for is probabilistic, as stochastic is simply the opposite of deterministic.

... and the word for the mathematic law of probabilitys according to my dictonary.

Quote:

Anyway, i believe it would take a lot more than thousands of coaches to do it. I believe you'd probably need about a million before you could get a TR 250-300 elf team with money to spare and no perms, without elfbowling your way there.

You are wrong.
It is not that unlikely.

Without elfbowling, there are still many ways to minimize the casulties against the own team.

AV 8 Blockdodgers are not that easy victims, if they avoid Dirty Players and Teams with tons of Tackle/MB.[/quote]

SnakeSanders

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:01

i totally agree here with zombie, i think he makes very good points, but it really aggrevates me that flaming from certain members from the offset when the original poster doesnt intend for agression, and ignores most of it, yet these flamers feel the need to stay on their soapbox for several posts

Alas we forget that this is the ranked crew and any suggestion that isnt made by one of the "cool gang" (if such a thing can be called that on FUMBBL) is met with flames. Im sure if one of the more "respected" coaches like Dreadclaw (and I mean that in the way the "cool gang" respect him) wrote something similar I am pretty sure there wouldnt be the same response. Also accusing Zombie of being a multiaccounter is very lame (BigMac = multiaccounter). Please keep wild accusations down or I will have to resort to reporting members... OK?

I know it isnt an ideal fix brian, but there are lots of good mixed leagues in [L], [L] > [R], the only thing R has going for it is a big playerbase and ease of getting games. L trumps R in any other aspect

Zombie69

Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:08

joshshott wrote:

1. This is a game that people play for fun, any restrictions on this game made by the site, should (and as far as I can tell is) strictly be in the interest of deterring cheats (spp farming , taking dives, etc)

Well, i rather like the suggestion made by Pirog, to impose no such limit in all of ranked, but to limit access to the majors to teams that follow this rule.

joshshott wrote:

2. Sure, elves can play against elves. But there is absolutely no justification that says that because of elf bowling, there are less casualties, thusly creating higher tr, longer lived teams blah blah blah... Lower AV teams playing lower AV teams increases the statistical chance of there being casualties. If every block on the field results in a 7+ armor roll, more armor will be broken, so an and so forth... So it is more likely that there is a casualty. Now if you strategically limit the number of blocks against your team, then more power to you. This game is about strategy, and luck. You cant expect people to just line all their guys on the LOS and bash around, if they are built... not to bash. Like elves.

And that same lower AV will be broken even more often playing against mighty blow, claw, etc.

No matter what race you're playing, you'll suffer fewer casualties against elves than against bashy teams. The team you're playing doesn't change either way, and your AV is the same, but what the opposition has makes a huge difference.

joshshott wrote:

4. Teams have a niche to make them interesting, otherwise we would all be playing humans. You complain that elfbowlers limit there CAS by playing other elves and being agile, yet they are still just as frail whether you block the once, or a hundred times. Again, dice. Should we then complain when bashers get +AG, or take big hand/sure hands? Thus giving them the ability to score touchdowns, and with their high av they can survive longer, and all the TDs will give them more spp and skills and high tr and on and on? Thus giving them the advantage over bashers because they have a better chance of getting the ball and scoring, yet have the same good armour, and advantage over elves because they can sometimes have similar chances to pick up/score, yet have even better armor. We should ban av9 from rolling +AG or taking ball handling skills, and keep elves from taking mighty blow? Is this rational thinking? No, its flawed, and are your arguments.

Well, when we see a chaos team with 16 AG4 players, we'll have ground for complaints! Until then, no. The game was designed so that chaos could get AG4 on a skill roll once in a while. This isn't broken and it's part of their design. Being all AG3, they're all one roll away from being AG4, and some of them can be expected to get there. The team is balanced that way.

However, the game wasn't designed to have nearly immortal elves by playing only against other elves. In fact, a system was put in place in 3rd ed (see the Death Zone rulebook) to prevent just that, namely challenges. Sadly, Fumbbl doesn't have such a system, and that's where it breaks down.

Last edited by Zombie69 on %b %20, %2007 - %10:%Sep; edited 1 time in total

Panda_

Joined: Jul 14, 2004

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:09

Synn wrote:

__Synn

_________________
"Rien ne sert de partir a point, il vaut mieux courir."

JimmyBlitz

Joined: Jul 05, 2006

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:11

Well said Rob. I think there is something to be said in regards to being civil when disagreeing.

Zombie69

Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:12

Thanks Brownrob, but... am i the one you're calling Brian? Confusing me with Brian Horton maybe? Or maybe Brian St. James?

Chiungalla

Joined: Sep 22, 2004

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:18

Quote:

The game was designed so that chaos could get AG4 on a skill roll once in a while. This isn't broken and it's part of their design.

I agree with you, that this is part of the design.
But I don't agree that stat+ on some teams are not broken.

One or maybe two AG+ can make an chaosteam play it the elfish way. That is broken. It's intended by the designer, but never the less, it's broken.

Bloodbowl isn't very good balanced at all.
The teams are not very balanced against each other, you can have tons of luck on the skill rolls, and so on.

The only thing that keeps it looking balanced is the high Luck-factor in the game. So you can win or loose nearly any game, despite the balance or your coach skills, with enough luck or bad luck on your side.

JimmyBlitz

Joined: Jul 05, 2006

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:19

"what the opposition has makes a huge difference." Yes, the choices you make dictate how you can play, what you are good at. Again, the choices coaches make in regards to there skills is NOT a problem for the masses. If bashers don't take tackle and elf bowlers don't take dodge/sidestep... that is their fault.
And in regards to challenges, I think there is a very important, and obvious reason why they are not in later editions. To prevent people from challenges games that are extremly one sided, and getting rewarded whether the game is played or not. People should always have the right to choose how they play a game of fun. Period.
Also, if you decide to submit your team for a tournament... you take the risk of being out scored on by elves, just as they risk getting reemed. It goes both ways. If your team can't have a descent offense or defense against certain races/team styles, that is the risk you run when you built your team that way for a tourny. Its a similar to the complaint about stalling if you didn't set yourself up to prevent it. Sure, sometimes you just habe a bad roll early in the turn, but more often than not its your own fault.

Last edited by JimmyBlitz on %b %20, %2007 - %10:%Sep; edited 1 time in total

neverdodge

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:26

That's a reason why i prefer playing in Scheduled league instead of open league.
As i somewhat agree that it seem unfair playing mostly against soft teams, there are other things i find not really right in an open environnement.
For example, we all know that elves devellop faster than bashy teams, that mean when your elves grow, if you play versus same TR/TS teams, you ll play against bashy with more games (At mid TR at least). In a scheduled environnement they wouldn t be so skilled.

I ll just add that Ranked is supposed to be competitive, and to those who say it should be fun, i agree, it should be fun (it s a game after all), but the main purpose of R should be competition, for more fun we got L and U don t we ?

SnakeSanders

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:29

Zombie69 wrote:

Thanks Brownrob, but... am i the one you're calling Brian? Confusing me with Brian Horton maybe? Or maybe Brian St. James?

D'oh my bad, I always thought you were callen Brian! Sorry! Laughing

Zombie69

Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:29

Chiungalla wrote:

Quote:

The game was designed so that chaos could get AG4 on a skill roll once in a while. This isn't broken and it's part of their design.

I agree with you, that this is part of the design.
But I don't agree that stat+ on some teams are not broken.

One or maybe two AG+ can make an chaosteam play it the elfish way. That is broken. It's intended by the designer, but never the less, it's broken.

Bloodbowl isn't very good balanced at all.
The teams are not very balanced against each other, you can have tons of luck on the skill rolls, and so on.

The only thing that keeps it looking balanced is the high Luck-factor in the game. So you can win or loose nearly any game, despite the balance or your coach skills, with enough luck or bad luck on your side.

I agree that the game certainly isn't perfectly balanced, but i'd say it's pretty damn good in that department, considering there are 20+ races to choose from.

And i agree that AG4 on chaos is good, but it's certainly not broken, nor does having 1 or 2 of those let them play like elves. To play like elves, you need an AG4 thrower with passing skills, and a bunch of AG4 catchers with agility skills, among other things.

They may attempt to play like elves, sure. But they'll never be as good at it as real elves.

Zombie69

Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:31

brownrob wrote:

Zombie69 wrote:

Thanks Brownrob, but... am i the one you're calling Brian? Confusing me with Brian Horton maybe? Or maybe Brian St. James?

D'oh my bad, I always thought you were callen Brian! Sorry! Laughing

Well, i did the OBERWALD with Brian Horton, and went to tournaments with Brian St. James, so you must have me confused with one of those. My real name is in my profile!

Zombie69

Joined: Jul 02, 2007

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:35

joshshott wrote:

"what the opposition has makes a huge difference." Yes, the choices you make dictate how you can play, what you are good at. Again, the choices coaches make in regards to there skills is NOT a problem for the masses. If bashers don't take tackle and elf bowlers don't take dodge/sidestep... that is their fault.
And in regards to challenges, I think there is a very important, and obvious reason why they are not in later editions. To prevent people from challenges games that are extremly one sided, and getting rewarded whether the game is played or not. People should always have the right to choose how they play a game of fun. Period.
Also, if you decide to submit your team for a tournament... you take the risk of being out scored on by elves, just as they risk getting reemed. It goes both ways. If your team can't have a descent offense or defense against certain races/team styles, that is the risk you run when you built your team that way for a tourny. Its a similar to the complaint about stalling if you didn't set yourself up to prevent it. Sure, sometimes you just habe a bad roll early in the turn, but more often than not its your own fault.

Actually, challenges are not just old stuff from old editions. Look at LRB4, page 47. It's still there!

Also, remember, i'm not saying elves are too good. I'm saying elves that are allowed to play exclusively against elves eventually become too good. I have absolutely no problem with elves in general.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:36

Zombie, your profile shows you lack openmindedness.
I don't agree with elfbowlers, but I HATE (hate) those who don't let people do what they want.

The likes of you are the biggest Fumbbl problem, not elfbowlers. You want other coaches to play the way you consider the right one, and despise everyone else. That's far worse than elfbowling.

Just my 2 cents.

So I'd vote option 5 in your poll: "I think elfbowling is wrong but I have no right to force other coaches to play the way I want".

_________________

Purplegoo

Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Posted: Sep 20, 2007 - 10:40

I had made a proper point and everything... But instead;

Cyclops Kitten!

<img src="http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/01/11/cyclops_narrowweb__300x375,0.jpg">

Last edited by Purplegoo on %b %20, %2007 - %11:%Sep; edited 1 time in total