Severoth
Joined: Nov 17, 2007
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 Posted:
Nov 22, 2007 - 22:23 |
 
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Hey All,
I'm new here and have a few things to query about the dwarf team.
1) Why the hate for them? Overall they seem to be about one of the most hated teams that you can play. Is this purely because they are locked into a 2-1 playstyle and if so why aren't they similarly compared to Khemri?
2) What are some good ways to focus on developing your dwarf team over the course of a tournament? I've been practicing in the SWL fringe, but soon the next official SWL season will begin, and I would love to have a firm game plan.
3) Strengths of a dwarf team? To me, personally the biggest strength are your lineman. Armoured to the hilt, with block and tackle they are to me the perfect lineman. Albeit a little slow.  On top of that fairly well armoured and a huge amount of block scattered over the other players make them fairly scary. Am I missing anything here?
4) On the 2-1 win...is it feasible to play with a brick wall defence and go for a complete stonewall when your opponent receives and try to prevent the score. At the same time try and keep the pressure up, force him to make a mistake and have a turnover with you scoring and then you scoring in the second half? I'm new but relying upon a 2-1 win seems rather corny. Also if you can't force him to score quick enough you leave yourself with not enough time to score in the first and the best you can hope for is a draw.
5) Played two matches so far with my dwarves...both draws. One vs flings and one vs chaos. The chaos one I had a failed cage attempt in the second half which caused me to loose the game. Any links to good cage setups?
Anyway, thanks for reading and to the people that run this site it's great to see it's going so strong.
Cheers,
Sev |
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def909
Joined: Oct 25, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 22, 2007 - 22:35 |
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1) When coached by someone who knows what he´s doing, dwarves are very powerful. On top of that, the "2:1 playstyle" you mentioned makes them somewhat boring to play against, although they make up for that somewhat by doing lots of cas.
2) guard, mb and at least 2 dps
5) If you can´t make them score fast, you did something wrong |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Nov 22, 2007 - 22:43 |
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dorfs tip 1
retire them, as you'll get bugger all games |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 22, 2007 - 22:53 |
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Dorfs are a bit dull because they don't break when you hit them. They also have a grinding, totally predictable playstyle. The fact that they are the easiest team to luck a win with without playing well isnt a point in their favour either.
The starting roster is just very powerful, when I introduced my friend to BloodBowl (via the grand tournament) he commented afterwards that two games had been great, two games good and two game rubbish. The two rubbish games were against dorfs. Suprised?
Edit: I think you've got the right idea. The 2-1 win is pretty useful to learn though. |
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Da_Todfatha
Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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Nov 22, 2007 - 23:04 |
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Because people are sissies.
They want their little pansy players with MV 9 to survive, and against dwarfs, they dont. They want to win games 4-3 and have a full roster for next game, against dwarfs they win 4-0 and lose 3 players.
If you like bashy teams, better get ready to hear every lame excuse not to play you. You have 2 many DP's. Dwarfs = boring. Orcs, Chaos Dwarves, etc. are broken. I don't play teams with "hurty" skills. Blah blah blah
In SWL you will be okay though. SWL'ers are Bloodbowl nutters by and large. Also, avoid [R]anked. Create L teams and join tournaments, there are dozens and dozens, and then no one can dodge you.  )
Good Luck. |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 22, 2007 - 23:09 |
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1) many people hate Khemri too... but Dwarves have a couple extra nasty points, 1st ag3 makes them safer on ballhanding, 2nd ar9 and apo make them less vulnerable to casualties.
2) Guard and Migthy Blow, also DP, Stand Firm on doubles
3) yes, you are missing the strength skills access, all that guard is another reason people doesn't like them... and may be the inborn Sure Hands on runners, making them inmune to Strip Ball... and the relatively cheap positionals.
4) you should always try for a good defense, pressing the ball... if you do not press, your opponent will delay the touch, with presure may be he doesn't even score. But you can't allways prevent your opponents from scoring, no matter how good your defense.
Still, Dwarves can score in two turns (easier with an empty field).
...and they can go for a 3th touch... and a 4th
5) you played two matches, flings and chaos, both draws, and you made a failed cage vs the chaos that caused you to loose... 2 matches both draws and you loose one? 
new dwarves, without Guard, have st3, so st4 (or Horns) can trouble your tight cages, make them more loose to get more movility
note: I don't play with dwarves, but against them (usually) |
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riktikticheck
Joined: Jul 30, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 22, 2007 - 23:40 |
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Well as a rule i would start a dwarf team with 2 blitzers and 2 runners - have all the ag 3 on the field i can muster, also 2 turn td:s are doable, especially if the opponent thinks you are gonna stall, 3-4 turn ones are easy enough.
don't forget that you can score with a longbeard with a touchback, as they are more difficult to train.
for longbeard guard, mighty blow is a good start, while hopimg for a stat increase or doubles =)
well each one for hiom self, but your playstyle will shape the team. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 22, 2007 - 23:46 |
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| Severoth wrote: | | 1) Why the hate for them? Overall they seem to be about one of the most hated teams that you can play. Is this purely because they are locked into a 2-1 playstyle and if so why aren't they similarly compared to Khemri? |
Well, most people do hate Khemri too. But there are some who think the only way to beat a team is to break it. Against Khemri there are crunchy AV 7 Skeletons, and though taking out a Mummy may be difficult it's got a big pay-off. Outbashing dwarves is satisfying when you can pull it off, but efforts to do so are generally futile as dwarves are both tough and easily replaceable.
| Quote: | | 2) What are some good ways to focus on developing your dwarf team over the course of a tournament? I've been practicing in the SWL fringe, but soon the next official SWL season will begin, and I would love to have a firm game plan. |
Your main problem is likely to be SPP distribution. Your Runners are the natural scorers who will gain SPPs most easily, but they also need them least (just Block on one is plenty). For the others, you can't control who will get CAS and MVPs so they will skill irregularly. (And when one gets MB you'll tend, naturally, to block with him more, so he'll get more SPPs while other dwarves don't.) The usual answer is to score with the other dwarves (usually handing off to them once you're in a safe position). This risk can be harder to justify in a competitive league than it is in Ranked.
As for skill choices, Runners want Block, Blitzers and Longbeards want Guard then Mighty Blow, Slayers want Mighty Blow and Tackle. Dodge for Runners on doubles, Stand Firm on the others. Utility skills (Kick and DP) can go on Longbeards - or Runners if Longbeards are skilling slowly - but Guard is probably more important, to be honest.
| Quote: | | 3) Strengths of a dwarf team? To me, personally the biggest strength are your lineman. Armoured to the hilt, with block and tackle they are to me the perfect lineman. Albeit a little slow. On top of that fairly well armoured and a huge amount of block scattered over the other players make them fairly scary. Am I missing anything here? |
No, Longbeards are the best position. All the actual positionals are rubbish. Ignoring Thick Skull, Runners are Human Throwers missing a skill, the Blitzers are slow Orc Blitzers and Slayers have two skills (Dauntless and Frenzy) which you would probably not choose to put together. However, they can all do things that Longbeards can't so they tend to be essential anyway.
| Quote: | | 4) On the 2-1 win...is it feasible to play with a brick wall defence and go for a complete stonewall when your opponent receives and try to prevent the score. At the same time try and keep the pressure up, force him to make a mistake and have a turnover with you scoring and then you scoring in the second half? I'm new but relying upon a 2-1 win seems rather corny. Also if you can't force him to score quick enough you leave yourself with not enough time to score in the first and the best you can hope for is a draw. |
There's no reason not to give defending a try. But you have to remember: the offence always has the initiative (barring PD/Blitz!) because it sets up second and moves first. So, the dwarf defence has to spread out (or leave channels open), while the offence concentrates. Dwarves being so slow, this inevitably leaves a couple of players completely out of the game for a while. Can you defend with 9 vs 11? So, dwarves are very poorly suited to defence, especially against any team which can play with a bit of movement and flexibility.
| Quote: | | 5) Played two matches so far with my dwarves...both draws. One vs flings and one vs chaos. The chaos one I had a failed cage attempt in the second half which caused me to loose the game. Any links to good cage setups? |
Quick and dirty guide to caging: position players so they cover all routes to your ball-carrier with tackle-zones (this is the obvious part: the classic way is to put a player on each square diagonally adjacent to the ball-carrier, but the classic way is by no means the only one or the best); secondly, if any of those players forming the cage (its 'pillars') is adjacent to an opponent, your cage is probably not a cage! If any of those 'pillars' of your cage can be moved with just a block, then your ball-carrier may end up on the end of a blitz: and dwarves rarely come out best from loose ball situations. Also, don't cram too many players into your cage beyond those needed to form it. If you do, you may make it possible for your opponent to chainpush your ball-carrier out of it.
In advanced dwarf cages, all the 'pillars' should have Guard (and Stand Firm). These can make it possible for a cage to still be a real cage when it has opponents adjacent to it.
Edit: Watched your game vs Chaos. Don't worry about your defence: your opponent could only score with a desperation pass between his Beastmen. This is the sort of crazy move you want to force - and there's nothing you can do about the fact that it will sometimes come off.
Offence was a bit odd: at the start, set up to block (not blitz) all the players your opponent has to put up on the LoS. That's what they're there for. Dwarves will get nowhere by turning down free blocks.
Get two dice blocks. Dwarves can get away with one die blocks, yes, because they all have Block. But don't do it early in the turn and don't do it if you can easily move an assist in. Two dice blocks are not only safer but have a much better chance of knocking the opponent down, and Dwarves need to make every block count.
Your cages, as I feared, are classic not-cages in terms both of leaving open paths to your ball-carrier and of having parts of the cage who are adjacent to opponents. Small risks like having to dodge or make a one dice block will not put an opponent off from going for a Dwarf ball-carrier: they know it's their best shot. (Note that Chaos Beastmen, with Horns, are particularly good at exposing poor coverage of a ball-carrier.) |
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Last edited by pac on %b %23, %2007 - %00:%Nov; edited 1 time in total |
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johan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 22, 2007 - 23:52 |
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| Severoth wrote: | Hey All,
I'm new here and have a few things to query about the dwarf team.
1) Why the hate for them? Overall they seem to be about one of the most hated teams that you can play. Is this purely because they are locked into a 2-1 playstyle and if so why aren't they similarly compared to Khemri? |
I imagine multi-DP Khemri are also considered 'boring' by those people. Even though Dwarves have a much better scoring game if they want to.
| Quote: | | 2) What are some good ways to focus on developing your dwarf team over the course of a tournament? I've been practicing in the SWL fringe, but soon the next official SWL season will begin, and I would love to have a firm game plan. |
MB and Guard on all the 'Beards. A Kick and a couple of DP (although Dwarves do better without DP than most teams). At least one Runner with good passing. MB, Guard and then whatever you like on the Blitzers. MB/Pro/Guard on the Slayers.
Try to keep the SPP spread out - this includes scoring with 'Beards now and then. A 'Beard is pretty much done with is developement when he hits 16 SPP, barring doubles and stat increases.
| Quote: | | 3) Strengths of a dwarf team? To me, personally the biggest strength are your lineman. Armoured to the hilt, with block and tackle they are to me the perfect lineman. Albeit a little slow. On top of that fairly well armoured and a huge amount of block scattered over the other players make them fairly scary. Am I missing anything here? |
No, that's pretty much it. Unlike some other bashers, you have a good passing game, though, for the few AG 3 players. This helps a lot when you have to score in 2 or 3 turns (yes, that happens sometimes). Well, the Strength access is huge too, of course.
| Quote: | | 4) On the 2-1 win...is it feasible to play with a brick wall defence and go for a complete stonewall when your opponent receives and try to prevent the score. At the same time try and keep the pressure up, force him to make a mistake and have a turnover with you scoring and then you scoring in the second half? I'm new but relying upon a 2-1 win seems rather corny. Also if you can't force him to score quick enough you leave yourself with not enough time to score in the first and the best you can hope for is a draw. |
No, you can't really outright stonewall an opponent on the defence - you need some depth and mobility. Diving Tackle is spectacularly good on defence, and even more so with Stand Firm or Sidestep. Dwarves defend like most other teams - stress the opponent's position to force him to make risky rolls. The 2-1 win is where it's at, although occasionally you do better, of course. Dwarves can't match Chaos Dwarves when it comes to a good defense. |
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AndyBurns
Joined: Mar 11, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 23, 2007 - 00:37 |
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| Severoth wrote: | | 1) Why the hate for them? Overall they seem to be about one of the most hated teams that you can play. Is this purely because they are locked into a 2-1 playstyle and if so why aren't they similarly compared to Khemri? |
'Cos there are lots of soft skeletons to mangle. It's not hard to out-cas Khemri with a bashy team. Dwarves are more like Orcs - armoured, predictable, fairly cheap.
Now, next try Chaos Dwarves - Bull Centaurs rock! |
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Plorg
Joined: May 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 23, 2007 - 00:43 |
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It is easiest to tip a Dwarf when he is asleep. |
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Snorri
Joined: Jun 07, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 23, 2007 - 01:23 |
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They're soft and pretentious!
Any race which hides behind panzer-plate armour and waits till they have a full suite of skills before they hit the blood bowl pitch is a little unchallenged  Underneath that beard they're softer than a dragon's belly. |
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kemimutt
Joined: Apr 21, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 23, 2007 - 01:33 |
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There is only 2 things one have to know about dwarfs.
1 Dont play with them - they are booring to play with ond noone will want to play against you.
2 Dont playt against them - they are booring to play against. REALLY booring. |
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ClayInfinity
Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 23, 2007 - 01:46 |
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Severoth,
Want some Dwarf caging advice, look no further than the SWL Newsletter. About halfway through this document is an article on caging... take a look.
Re your questions:
1. Dwarves are hated for a number of reasons: They tend to win the CAS count due to their high AV and block skill and as such you're subjecting your team to a game of attrition you're probably going to lose... hence the "team builders" on fumbbl see no reason to play them.
2. Dwrves are actually easy to build up from their great starting roster... guard, MB on longbeards and the fancier skills on the Blitzers and Runners. Piling On, Tackle on Slayers as well...
3. Yup. AV9, Block, Tackle, TSkull... what else do you need!
4. Dwarf Defence? What is that! You kick, you bash them into scoring in 2 turns and you have the ball for the next 14 turns! Who needs defence!
5. Happy to play you in SWL Fringe with your Dwarves and help you out... they are one of my favourite table top teams. |
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gregory_n_white
Joined: Jan 05, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 23, 2007 - 01:47 |
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Read this - I recently started a dorf team in SWL myself and am having a raging success (might get promoted first season but really dont want to).
http://fumbbl.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=19&page=10
On another note - I have found with defending, especially at low TR, have 3-5 guys on LOS; and leave 2 guys set about 6 squares back from LOS in wide areas (to try shut down any flank plays) and 2-4 guys a few squares off LOS in midfield to slow up the middle. Spread out; slow down attacks as it will take you 1-2 turns to get any real defense set up once someone busts past the LOS.
BUT - the benefit is that you will get there; and you wont be easily knocked around or dodged away from (due to lots of tackle) - so if the opponent scores fast it just gives you more tiem with ball in hand to smash em into the ground. |
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