def909
Joined: Oct 25, 2005
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 Posted:
Jan 24, 2008 - 13:37 |
 
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I like dwarves! As someone who has coached low AV teams a lot, it´s really refreshing to play a race that will win the game of "last man standing". It´s true though that dwarves have to stick to one kind of play more than other races because of their low MA. Skill selection is also less diverse, as I really wouldn´t know what to give to a longbeard for his first two skills except Guard and MB (even when rolling doubles). The only thing I don´t like about them is that getting games is really difficult  |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 24, 2008 - 14:35 |
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| sk8bcn wrote: | | SillySod wrote: | Dwarfs are predictable, present you with the same challenge as the last dwarf coach, often coach dwarfs because they have a dull personality or compensating for a flaw in their play
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That made me laugh. 
Hey Silly maybe there's something else: those coaches play with short players because they have short d***s.
Well, it's a real challenge to play dorfs. Breaking a cage or slowing them down, forcing them to run because time is running out, figuring out how he could reform a cage + gain squares.
All this IS TACTICALLY interesting. Requieres either some skills.
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Dwarfs have a very textbook style. Good Dwarf play tends to be very similar and very prescribed, seldom do the masters of Dwarf lore have large disagreements on how to play them. If you have a weakness in your play it is much easier to identify it and iron it out (or just ignore it) with Dwarfs simply because each game has a very set routine which you can keep modifying until you are happy with it, in the short term the power of your linemen and general durability mean you arent really punished for weak play long term.
Due to the repetitive, uninspiring, and mechanical style play it feels a bit like playing against a machine. Sure, this is good tactically and playing against a machine can have its joys, constantly refining tactics little by little etc... but that isnt what I play BB for. I started playing BB because of the tactics and I do enjoy them but what makes it really good fun for me is the following:
- really sticky situations where there is no right or wrong, merely good plays, bad plays and very occasionally pure genious plays.
- i.e. having to adapt your tactics and make up stuff on the spot.
- fluff
- fouling and general comedy
Dwarfs seldom produce any of that, they don't play to the strengths of BB.
Worse, Dwarf coaches do very little to redeem that. There are two situations where I will consistently chose to play against a Dwarf team above another:
- With my Halflings
- Against Hogshines Dwarfs
Both situations tend to have a fair bit of chat and both situations tend to have their share of fluff, fouling, comedy and some really interestingly messy situations.
Just one last observation (pretty much a summary):
Unless I make a truly genious play, or they make a significant mistake the game is generally decided by if I get the dice or if I don't. I can predict roughly which dice they will be before the game. There is very little that a Dwarf team does to redeem that feature. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 24, 2008 - 16:13 |
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| SillySod wrote: | Due to the repetitive, uninspiring, and mechanical style play it feels a bit like playing against a machine. Sure, this is good tactically and playing against a machine can have its joys, constantly refining tactics little by little etc... but that isnt what I play BB for. I started playing BB because of the tactics and I do enjoy them but what makes it really good fun for me is the following:
- really sticky situations where there is no right or wrong, merely good plays, bad plays and very occasionally pure genious plays.
- i.e. having to adapt your tactics and make up stuff on the spot.
- fluff
- fouling and general comedy
Dwarfs seldom produce any of that, they don't play to the strengths of BB.
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This can happen even against a dwarf coach. Actually, you may even force them to play differently.
Mainly this is the mechanical mistake done by too many coaches against dorfs:
->Score a 2 or 3 turner, get stalled on, 1-1 half
->Get stalled for a 2-1 in half 2.
Now force them to chase you, stall with great abilitie. get them move slowly by forcing them to run in the wings and the game has a full different taste.
Bitter because your elves get crippled. But still tactical.
And for bashers:
->dorfs outguard you, but you have strength 4 players.
Stretch out their cage, manmark force them to seperate. Dorfs play close as a compact squad. Deny it.
Also tactically interesting.
To say: My dorfs tactic will have the same gamestyle everytime: yes!
To say: playing dorfs will lead to the same everytime is wrong. It's difficult. But it's wrong. |
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Last edited by sk8bcn on %b %24, %2008 - %16:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 24, 2008 - 16:25 |
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With elves, yes, you can do that. It probably won't even cost you too much especially with decent armour like dark elves.
My favourite team is Vampires. Breaking up the cage and stealing the ball is the way for me to win, usually its good enough for a 2-1 win, depending how the dice treat me and what mistakes I make. What I can't do is stall against them, and even if I could...
Don't you see that this is still a very predictable result? Either your stall/cagebreak gets the dice and you win or it dosent. I havent seen a decent Dwarf responce to either except to do what they were doing anyway tighter and better. To an extent this is true of any BB game but it is alot easier to predict when it comes to Dwarfs as the optimum tactics with them are so clearly defined and hashed out.
I'm not saying that I never play against Dwarfs, its good practice to play against them reasonably often, but I don't usually enjoy it much and I certainly turn people down for no other reason than "I dont like Dwarfs". |
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PhrollikK
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
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Jan 24, 2008 - 16:32 |
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What, dwarves not good dodgers? Try playing a team with a couple players with stand firm. Not only are you outbashed but in a pinch they can manouver and cause some mayhem with a cherry on top 
Basically the only thing wrong with this team is RR-cost and skill heavy players. other than that it's just another team with their own feel. |
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Hogshine
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jan 24, 2008 - 18:14 |
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| SillySod wrote: | Worse, Dwarf coaches do very little to redeem that. There are two situations where I will consistently chose to play against a Dwarf team above another:
- With my Halflings
- Against Hogshines Dwarfs
Both situations tend to have a fair bit of chat and both situations tend to have their share of fluff, fouling, comedy and some really interestingly messy situations. |
I feel I should really point out that the comedy comes, because I have no idea how to coach dorfs, or any team for that matter. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 24, 2008 - 20:10 |
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While Hogshine is correct, what I really meant is that I get some fun chat while his Dorfs stomp my team which IMO is pretty good compensation, more it makes me want to play his Dwarfs again. Further... could you say no to This Team? |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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OneEye
Joined: Mar 15, 2007
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2008 - 02:43 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | Dwarfs are predictable, present you with the same challenge as the last dwarf coach, often coach dwarfs because they have a dull personality or compensating for a flaw in their play |
Why exactly does such a basic question regarding a Blood Bowl team have to be reduced to a personal attack against dwarven coaches SillySod?? Seems pretty pathetic to me but whatever makes you feel better about yourself.
To the rest of the people in the forum, thanks for your input... i can totally see what many of you mean about the tactics and play style but isn't it a better way to look at the situation as a challenge?!? Here you have a team which is hard to kill or hurt in any way and therefore you must ADAPT your game style to beat them? I would have thought that would be a challenge that Blood Bowl players love!
And regarding it being boring to play against dorfs... there is the saying it takes two to tango... if a game is boring you can't just blame it on the dwarfs!! If you get sucked in to playing the type of game you can't win against then thats your bad coaching, not the oppositions fault!
Now after defending the little fellas, i should probably point out that i was once one of you! I LOVE playing orcs and skaven and did so for many years and every year i would look to try a new team. Everytime i came to the dorfs on the roster list i would turn up my nose at them (i'm a snob at heart!). But since starting on FUMBBL i tried them and loved playing the little fellas!
Give them a try if you already haven't! |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2008 - 04:21 |
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| Radmane wrote: | | SillySod wrote: | | Dwarfs are predictable, present you with the same challenge as the last dwarf coach, often coach dwarfs because they have a dull personality or compensating for a flaw in their play |
Why exactly does such a basic question regarding a Blood Bowl team have to be reduced to a personal attack against dwarven coaches SillySod?? Seems pretty pathetic to me but whatever makes you feel better about yourself. |
Like it or not, many Dwarven coaches are tedious company. Its not exactly a personal attack (unless you personally are a tedious coach) but a general statement about my experience of dorf coaches. Interestingly you responded with a personal attack... or two, compensating?
Seriously though, play plenty of vampire coaches and plenty of dorf coaches (for example) and you will notice a definate trend towards one being more chatty and thus giving you a more fun game. My point is that most dorf coaches arent helping themselves to be appealing.
| Radmane wrote: |
And regarding it being boring to play against dorfs... there is the saying it takes two to tango... if a game is boring you can't just blame it on the dwarfs!! If you get sucked in to playing the type of game you can't win against then thats your bad coaching, not the oppositions fault!
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Getting sucked into a game you can't win isnt what makes them dull, I think most people who posted can see past that, whether they think that playing them is dull or not. |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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OneEye
Joined: Mar 15, 2007
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2008 - 04:40 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | Getting sucked into a game you can't win isnt what makes them dull, I think most people who posted can see past that, whether they think that playing them is dull or not. |
riggghhhhtttiiiooo... so if a game is dull its simply because they are a dwarf or vampire player... yet you state you don't like dwarven teams and avoid them so how exactly do you have such worldly experience to claim the coaches associated with these teams are boring and dull???
Meh anyway i didn't ask the question to argue about your personal thoughts on coaches and the teams they play. I'm just gonna have to play my dwarfs like skaven so people like SillySod don't instantly lump me in the 'boring and dull' dwarven coach category... that would devastate me. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2008 - 04:47 |
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Dwarfs are my 4th most played against [R]anked opponent. You asked why Dwarfs are avoided and I told you, either you can act on my answer and my advice to actually talk to your opponent or you can assume I'm a jerk. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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OneEye
Joined: Mar 15, 2007
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2008 - 04:51 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | Dwarfs are my 4th most played against [R]anked opponent. You asked why Dwarfs are avoided and I told you, either you can act on my answer and my advice to actually talk to your opponent or you can assume I'm a jerk. |
 Don't sook |
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EdgeDante
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
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Jan 25, 2008 - 05:08 |
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I think SillySod's onto something actually. Vampires and Dwarves are polar opposites.
Vampire teams have lots of variations. Half the vampire teams I've played against I've taken one look at and said, "Wow, I'd have never built mine that way" but they have a winning record and their coach uses what they've got pretty well. I spec vampire games all the time and I see their coach making moves that make no sense to me - putting vamps on the LoS, taking guard all the time on doubles, no Pro on any vampires at all, Stand Firm on doubles, multiple niggled thralls/vampires that weren't fired, etc. Vampires have a pretty bad roster but vampires themselves are arguably the most flexible, most capable players to set foot on the pitch in all of BBowl once they've passed their OFAB rolls. Their linemen are generic and they die fast, but they're capable of doing whatever you like given a doubles roll or two. There's a zillion ways to design a vampire team.
Vampires are built around risk. Any vampire could at any time blitz, block, pass, catch, assist or hypnotize (something no other regular player type in the game can do), and do so extremely competently. At any time they could also waste your blitz, make your ballcarrier ruin the play you've designed, and RIP your star thrall or drop the ball and leave the pitch, causing a turnover in the process. Anything can happen from the moment you try to use them.
Dwarves on the other hand are entirely inflexible. Either they've got tons of Mighty Blow and Guard or they're probably pretty crappy.
Dwarves don't take risks either. Move guard here, 2d block there, blitz someone, cage the carrier, wait til next turn, and repeat.
Vampires - creativity, risk
Dwarves - uniformity, reliability
Creative types and risk-takers will prefer Vampires.
People that don't want to have to think about it much or make mistakes will prefer Dwarves.
Yes, Dwarves are boring to most of us. But they're boring by design. If they weren't boring, I'd bet that a lot of the people that like them now wouldn't otherwise. |
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OneEye
Joined: Mar 15, 2007
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2008 - 05:50 |
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Yeah what your saying is definately something i have noticed as well hence the reason for the thread. I just have an issue with SillySods words towards dwarf coaches.
I have never actually played Vampires because when i have played against them the exact thing you were talking about always happens... vampires do some damage to my team before the rerolls dry up and the vamps start chomping their own players!! Classic but WAYYYYYY to frustrating for such a fragile mind as my own (says the idiot who seems to enjoy playing goblin cheaters in stunty!!).
But i guess i must play dwarfs differently to the normal stereotypical way and so i'm kinda bemused by some of the ideas thats dorfs are boring. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2008 - 10:02 |
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Bythe way, Silly, most of your games versus dorfs were games with flings, thus obvious cherrypickers.
So naturally, those guys weren't fun.
And playing the standart dorf game versus flings is far from hard. |
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