| Poll |
| What do you think of the changes? |
| Fantastic! Just what I've been waiting for! |
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48% |
[ 26 ] |
| Good start... but still needs some work. |
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25% |
[ 14 ] |
| Meh. My goals are different anyways. |
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3% |
[ 2 ] |
| Bad... I see big problems on the horizon! |
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5% |
[ 3 ] |
| Ugh! Back to the ol' drawing board with you! |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Wait! How many points for a PIE??? |
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16% |
[ 9 ] |
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| Total Votes : 54 |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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 Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 06:40 |
 
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I resent Cat. D completely. Taking it out makes me a happy Synn!
__Synn |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 06:56 |
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| Synn wrote: | I resent Cat. D completely. Taking it out makes me a happy Synn!
__Synn |
Wuss. I've said it before, I'm sure I'll say it again 
I think its a sad day when elves arent man enough to take on other elves. |
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Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Arcon
Joined: Mar 01, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 08:10 |
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These changes look very good!
Removing the Elf-category makes sense in my oppinion.
I don't think that the TS difference is an issue. You will just not get the 10 points baseline bonus. So what?
I am eager to see how the new scoring system works. It looks absolutely good enough to give it a try. We will see its effect after the first season. 
Thx pizzamogul. Your effort you put into this group (as always) is highly appreciated (as always)!! |
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CanvasBack
Joined: Jan 15, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 08:11 |
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Handicapping the difficulty of matches based on TR/TS is fine, I never really bother to look at CR anymore since it's a pretty broken stat and prone to abuse. I wonder if the proposed limit on CR would actually limit new folks joining, particularly ones who got picked early on and have a CR in the 140s and simply doesn't trust a coach with a rating much above 150 anyway.
Taking Cat D out wouldn't break my heart but it also goes against the grain of what E.L.F. is supposed to be about, i.e. willing to take on any type of opponent. Sometimes, the hardest opponent for elves is... well, elves. If you don't have to worry about playing elves as part of E.L.F. that will ultimately effect skill selection and narrow the play style members will adopt in my opinion. |
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"When you have shot and killed a man you have in some measure clarified your attitude toward him. You have given a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or worse you have acted decisively. In a way, the next move is up to him." R.A. Lafferty |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 09:29 |
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Speaking as someone who primarily joined up just because I want my Elves to follow the ELF ideals, the scoring isn't as important to me. That being said, I think Pizza's new ideas are great.
As an addition; I've always thought there should be a bonus for a team submitting their ELF season as consecutive games. i.e, if a team can point to a 10 game block (previously, there were 5 catagories, so 10 games, right? I really didn't take that much notice!  ) in their schedule and say "I submit my season as that block", their score could perhaps be increased by 15%? Of course, Rizzle's program might struggle with that, but I always liked the idea of a team not having multiple goes at Chaos (say) just to squeeze out that little bit extra. It's also extra incentive to those of us that don't really have the time to complete a season and make sure we get wins everywhere to try and be #1.
Edit: Oh, and insert my usual "CR is totally worthless" rant here. The baseline idea is the pick of the bunch, but only from the TS standpoint. Clearly if every game you play in a cycle is against Blockbuster, we have issues, but I don't think you can set a coaching competency level at a certain CR. |
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Arcon
Joined: Mar 01, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 10:02 |
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Just an idea:
We have the program that does the scoring. But maybe, to keep the group alive, give some few extra points at the end of the season for a team that posted the results in the forum and maybe some for those that wrote a short report/comment to the scoring games?
I know this has nothing to do with how you play, but maybe it is something to keep coaches active apart from playing (I did stop posting my results once the client did this, but then, I only played 2 or 4 games a season in total with my ELF team(s) that time...). |
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Panda_
Joined: Jul 14, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 10:43 |
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I always think E.L.F still encourage picking and elfbowling heavily:
People elfbowl, build team a lot. Then you play one category A. Rinse, Repeat. King of Category A.
To become what ELF praise to be, it should encourage people playing several times in a row against a category. Score additional points for every string played against the category (TR and TS in opponent's favor). Of course, points would depend of the category. Bashing category could be 1point for every game, medium 1 point every 2 games, Agile no points at all. Example: ELF play 5 times in a row against category A (scoring 20 points during the 1t and the 5th), then ELF build team against 10 times Agile and then score 22 points against another category A. His first game is 20 points worth (nothing changes), his 5th game is 24 points worth (20 points + 4 because his 4 previous game where against close TR/TS opponents), his last game is worth 22 points (nothing changes). That is to discourage people playing 20 elfbowling games before playing a category A, B, or D. |
_________________
"Rien ne sert de partir a point, il vaut mieux courir." |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 11:14 |
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Excellent!
I really like the changes. They help make the difference between something that I am just a 'member of' and something I actually 'compete in'.
Actually I wouldn't mind a 15pt baseline.
The example only gives a 1pt difference between a tough game and a complete cherrypick. In the tough game you are more likely to lose so no 10pt win bonus AND take more casualties.
With all the new [R] tournaments to prepare for picking is still attractive.
In this context I don't think that CR is meaningless. Capping the baseline at 155CR means that there are fewer cherries available. Sure, you can still try to pick overrated pickers but they'll probably turn you down anyway
The baseline is tough on rookies who want to go for the title but you still get points for non-baseline games. If you want to win it all you need to play tough opponents. For many people the cycle is the most important thing. These change improve the value of the points but many will still play without worrying about them.
I like the elf category. You should have to play everyone not just gear up for a certain type of game. |
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clarkin
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 12:58 |
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I like sound of the points tweaks (i've checked out ELF before but never joined with a team yet - not a big elf fan!).
I think elf v elf should remain, definitely.
I'm going to try and tweak the scoring program over the next week and see what affect these changes _would_ have had on last season's scores. Just to see do they make much difference or not (naturally it's not a fair score since no one knew about eg the baseline bonus, but it will still be interesting to see) |
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Shinan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 15:00 |
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I'm liking the change. I kinda almost feel like 155CR is a bit too much but on the other hand it probably isn't, most coaches seems to be over it in the end. It's just that I occasionally struggle to get over it and I don't consider myself the worst of coaches :D Perhaps I am though and that's the problem. :)
The changes aren't so freaky that I'll go around and leave the ELF feeling that it has given up its promise. Instead I'm liking it a lot and although I probably won't have any chance of winning categories or similar I'll still stay on and play on.
For the ELFen cause. The points will still be collected automatically though? Because that helps quite a bit. I can just play randomly and someone else will deal with the pointing.
I also like that the tournament bonus is as high as it is. Last season I got a couple of SMACK games in and I would have liked to have them count towards the scores but unfortunately my earlier victories against easier targets scored higher. (probalby due to the higher TD-pointgain)
so doublethumbsup ^^
| Panda_ wrote: | I always think E.L.F still encourage picking and elfbowling heavily:
People elfbowl, build team a lot. Then you play one category A. Rinse, Repeat. King of Category A. |
Finding those elven opponents is really hard. In my last ELF season I managed three games against elves, two of which were Dark Elves. Only at the very end of the season did I manage to find some woodies to play. Those elves are still hiding... I suppose there is some kind of inner circle I just can't find. |
_________________
"Älä löi, en ole hurrit." |
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Astereth
Joined: Sep 05, 2006
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 15:19 |
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Love the changes, should make it much more challenging to get into the top ten. I've been promising myself I'm going to try and stop picking recently so this is the best incentive to play coaches of a higher calibre. I also agree with the others who say Cat.D should stay, same reasons as well. ELF is about taking on all comers, that includes other elves, cutting out 20% of the available teams seems a bit off.
Will the records be reset? Without the 5td bonus and the lower weights for scoring and hurting I don't see the scores reaching the same levels. |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 15:24 |
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First, thanks pizzamogul for all the good work you do every season. The changes look great.
Then, some coments:
| Quote: |
Here are the changes I want to make for each match played:
1. Baseline - +10 points.
Change: In order to receive these points you must play a "baseline" match in which the Team Strength Differential is even (zero) or in your opponent's favor and the opposing coach has a Coach Rating of 155 or higher.
|
High TS teams may have problems with this one, and low CR coaches will have problems. And there are other situations that can be interesting...
I was considering something similar: conditions to get the bonuses
"the opposing coach has higher CR and TS diference is not more than 10 in your favor"
"the opposing coach has CR160+ and higher TS" (higher CR, but this is coupled with the above)
"the opposing coach has 20+ TS in his favor" (or 25 or watevre seems rigth)
| Quote: |
3. Scoring.
Per TD scored - +1 point.
Per TD allowed - -1 point.
Change: Halved the weight.
...
5. Bonuses.
Shutout victory (opponent does not score) - +3 points.
Force opponent concession - +3 points.
Game played in an Official Fummbl Tournament - +5 points.
Changes: Did away with the 5 TD scoring bonus - if you're scoring 5 times, that should be enough reward in and of itself. Added a "concession" bonus (as per Plorg's repeated suggestion) to allow for a more aggressive/brutal style of play to be competitive (often, an early concession removes the opportunity to generate points through scoring). While lowering the weight of those bonuses, I kept the "tourney" bonus high to further encourage participation as tourneys tend to "tie up" a team for extended periods of time on occasion. |
Now 2-1 gives the same bonus as 5-4 hehe
...and 1-0 the same as 5-1
That's a bit harsh on Wood Elves (and anithing I coach for example)
Scoring a lot doesn't give lots of points if you allow many touchs (The shutout victory may be more unbalanced imho)
Keep the "5+ touchdowns" bonus, but with +3 points.
...and wining a SFC gives +15 points (a lot with the new scoring) for less than 2h of "tied up" team :twited:
| Quote: | ... I might also have to have "special challenges" in future seasons to encourage play against 'flings, Goblins, Ogres and other races with which an even TS match may not be so even... we'll see.
One other thing I'm on the fence about: Category D. As I said before, I'm a big fan of tradition. However, there are more and more E.L.F. coaches that actually resent having to play against other elves to finish the cycle and compete. Also, it doesn't really make logical sense that a league "opposed" to elfbowl forces you to play such matches. So, would it break your heart if the E.L.F. cycle became 8 matches against 4 categories of non-elves? Perhaps then I can shorten up the season a bit and run more per year? |
I like playing against elves... from time to time.
Cat E has few teams apart from Skaven at high TR
Categories could be changed a little:
Nurgle to B (they are mutants, specially well suited to play vs elves)
Necros, Lizards and Skaven go to C
Ogres and all the elves to E (now D )
4 categories, more teams in C and the elves at the same level as Gobbos
| Quote: |
You comments are welcome. |
Note: I really like the look of the changes.
...and I know that some of my sugestion may look a bit complicated (I just think they are not  ) |
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pizzamogul
Joined: Jun 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 16:03 |
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Again, a lot of really constructive comments.
So far my biggest concern seems to be with >200 TS elf teams being able to compete on an even level with the fresher teams. I've also noticed in seasons past when my elves got up there, it became difficult to find well-matched opponents in Cat C and E on occasion - not impossible, but difficult - and with the new setup it will likely become tougher.
Another concern is the thought that 'needing to play >155 CR opponents to get baseline points' may turn off newer or "lower ranked" coaches. I hope that isn't the case and that the new format will offer them more opportunity to climb the standings, not less.
And, I'm still 'on the fence' about Category D. Many good arguments for keeping and for dumping. I will likely err on the side of tradition and keep it at this point... don't want to rock the boat too much.
So, what I'm planning to do is run a season to try out the new format. No special/racial challenges - I'll start a fresh racial cycle in Season 17 unless something comes up - just a old-fashioned focus-on-the-standings E.L.F. season.
I really, really want you to try and "break" or "exploit" the new system to the fullest of your abilities! Make a team that only plays in SFC's, make an all piling-on/dp team to win via the concession, exclusively vulture those 'juicy' 155 CR coaches in even matches, etc... Let's see what kind of results we get and as a community decide if we like what shakes out!
Also, nothing is set in stone yet (Clarkin still has to reprogram the Java). Keep the comments coming! I may rule with an Iron Fist, but I have a Heart of Gold. |
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Last edited by pizzamogul on %b %08, %2008 - %16:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 16:13 |
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| pizzamogul wrote: | | Another concern is the thought that 'needing to play >155 CR opponents to get baseline points' may turn off newer or "lower ranked" coaches. I hope that isn't the case and that the new format will offer them more opportunity to climb the standings, not less. |
Could switch it to: 'Must play coaches higher than CR 155 to get the bonus - unless your own CR is less than 155, in which case you may get the bonus for any coach with a higher CR than your own.'
I don't know exactly how Rijssiej's program works, but I would think it could handle that - especially as all match reports record CR values at time of play these days. |
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MadTias
Joined: Jun 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 08, 2008 - 17:23 |
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Pizzamogul is a sweet, sweet league-runner person. Fantastic changes! Clean and simple and to the point. Samovar Sinensis will be back for another season then!
About your concerns:
1) High TR elf teams will be less of an issue when they play more high TS/CR bashers.
2) It's good for lower CR coaches to play >155 CR coaches, it helps them evolve faster.
Oh, and I prefer to keep elves in, otherwise it isn't "all" races. Again, supersweet changes. |
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