PorkusMaximus
Joined: May 19, 2008
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 Posted:
May 20, 2008 - 22:49 |
 
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I just can't seem to do a thing with them.
Unless I'm missing something, I'm supposed to be overpowering my opponents with brute force and that's all well and good if my opponents are soft and squishy but what if they're not?
For example; Chaos. Warriors match black orcs for strength and are more agile and mobile. Beastmen are as fast as my blitzers and have a nice +1 str bonus when blitzing. Str 4 black orcs are great but it seems like other teams have str 4 players along with other nice bonus'.
I've tried starting a fresh Orc team a couple of times now and the only teams ppl use against me are Chaos/ogres/khemri/Lizardmen and I dunno wtf I'm supposed to do against teams that out-muscle me. The only game that I had any hope of winning was vs chaos dwarfs but lady luck had other things in mind and I spent the last 3 turns fumbling the ball in the end zone. -_-
I like playing orcs because I've always loved the spirit behind greenskins but it's frustrating playing teams that beat my Orcs at their own game. |
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arv9673
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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May 20, 2008 - 22:54 |
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My CR notwithstanding (I suck with ALL teams, orcs are no specialty of mine), the thing that strikes me as great about orcs is their balance. They can withstand a bashy team (AV9) but also have a decent Agility/ball handling skills (throwers) and a decent base movement (blitzers). They're not as bashy, correct, but they ain't all thumbs like Khemri either.
Just my $0.02 |
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Kaiowas
Joined: Apr 15, 2006
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May 20, 2008 - 22:59 |
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chaos warriors cost 110k, beastmen dont have block and have av8
st 4 black orcs for 80k is quite enough recompense. The orcs dont have a "game" to themselves, as its probably best played by dwarves but orcs have a flexibility to change up their play a little and are great at out muscling other teams at low levels. |
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kwèk
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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May 20, 2008 - 23:11 |
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| PorkusMaximus wrote: |
I've tried starting a fresh Orc team a couple of times now and the only teams ppl use against me are Chaos/ogres/khemri/Lizardmen and I dunno wtf I'm supposed to do against teams that out-muscle me. The only game that I had any hope of winning was vs chaos dwarfs but lady luck had other things in mind and I spent the last 3 turns fumbling the ball in the end zone. -_-
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Wait a minute.
Are you saying you get outmusceled by these teams?
are you serious?
okay MB on ogres and Khemri can be a pain in the ass, but even so, you have one of the highest armour values in the book.
Your troops are cheap, your guys are flexible (except for the BOBs) and you can start with 4 players with block. Who are probably one of the better blitzer caracters in the bashy team range (not talking abouth wardancers and dark elf blitzers).
You get 4 ST 4 guys, 4 Blockers, and some linos who arent that bad. Except for the movement value, you are playing one of the better bashing teams around, and you are complaining?
With ST acces they'll be getting GUARD and MB soon, so orcs can be excellent at causing havoc and taking just small amounts themselves.
Maybe should learn to play them instead of complaining abouth there capacity, cause manny good players are getting good results with them.
Try to keep 2 blitzers in the back incase something goes wrong.
Learn how to cage, and keep the field as wide as possible. Use your BOBs to create an impanerable screen, and use linos on key positions so that people don't get to put assists where they can put your BOBs down.
Know when to folow up, maximise your blocks and try to give none away.
Try to create a situation where your opponent is behind on players, this is the point where bashers become good. Pick out his weak stuff to kill first (skinks, skeletons, beastmen, etc) |
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It is a bit embarrassing to have been concerned with the human problem all one's life and find at the end that one has no more to offer by way of advice than 'try to be a little kinder'.
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Last edited by kwèk on %b %20, %2008 - %23:%May; edited 2 times in total |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
May 20, 2008 - 23:15 |
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| PorkusMaximus wrote: | | I've tried starting a fresh Orc team a couple of times now and the only teams ppl use against me are Chaos |
Chaos teams (at low TR) are always missing something. If they have all those high ST players, they don't have many players in total. They don't start with Block, and if they've managed to get a decent amount then they will be missing other things like Guard and Claw and Sure Hands. Their RRs are expensive (and the players too): if they have plenty of them then they'll have had to cut corners somewhere else. With equally good coaching and equally good skill choices, at low TR Orcs will always have the edge.
Ogres at low TR are also always missing something: re-rolls. You don't need to do anything clever, just wait for them to screw up and take advantage. AG 3 plus AV 9 means you can dodge away from Ogres without worrying too much that you're going to break doing it.
Khemri can be more tricky. You need to use Linemen to tie up Mummies, but if the Mummies get lucky and start MBing them out you're going to be in trouble and not much to be done about it. But as with Ogres, your advantage is actually your (relative) mobility, not your power - the Blitzers need to use as much time as the Linemen can buy them to pressure the ball.
Lizards are another interesting one. Again, you can tie up the Saurus - and they don't even have MB to threaten to take players out. Then it's Blitzers vs Skinks and may come down to how the block and dodge dice go.
| Quote: | | and I dunno wtf I'm supposed to do against teams that out-muscle me. |
The team is not just muscle. Most of it is AG 3 and while it is not at all fast, compared to a lot of the teams you mention it actually is faster.
| Quote: | | I like playing orcs because I've always loved the spirit behind greenskins but it's frustrating playing teams that beat my Orcs at their own game. |
Once the team is developed, you can take the approach of just bashing everything off the park, and only in a few games will the dice go against you causing this to fail. At lower TRs, it may be necessary to take advantage of some of the other features of Orc teams to keep the win rate up - especially since, as you point out, it tends to be that only certain teams will play against them.
PS - You conceded a game. Against Thorpe. That's not the greenskin spirit, is it?  |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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May 20, 2008 - 23:21 |
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| Quote: | | Maybe should learn to play them instead of complaining abouth there capacity, cause manny good players are getting good results with them. |
Wasnt he asking for advice so he could do exactly that?
Anyway... Orcs are probably the best team in the game for most TR/TS. Obviously they suit some people much more than others but they're generally accepted as the easy team etc. The important thing for you here is why and then how you can use that.
I dont really have time for a proper detailed post at the moment but I will say this..... the strength of orc teams is in the combination of 4 blockers and 4 blitzers (and a troll). You can get a total of 9 players with guard and you can get them (relatively) quickly. Orcs are all about tons and tons and tons of block/guard backed up with some utility skills like tackle, frenzy, strip ball and then some linemen with DP. The team then plays itself almost  |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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PorkusMaximus
Joined: May 19, 2008
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May 20, 2008 - 23:51 |
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| Quote: | | PS - You conceded a game. Against Thorpe. That's not the greenskin spirit, is it? |
No, but after having pretty much half my team KOed by half time I was utterly fed up and didn't see much point in continuing. Linesmen weren't even a speed bump for his mummies. It just wasn't fun.
I guess havinging 2 throwers is a bit of a mistake? Should I ditch 1 or even both in favour of more blitzers?
EDIT: Just lost another game to tomb kings, was only turn 3 of the second half and I had 2KOs 2 BIs and 1RIP. Feels like I'm wasting my time playing against them. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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May 20, 2008 - 23:59 |
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PorkusMaximus
Joined: May 19, 2008
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May 21, 2008 - 00:03 |
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| Quote: | | Isn't there some thing in the rules about that? |
If 50%+ my team is out of action then the game is a foregone conclusion. The only thing that would be gained from continuing would be injuries for my BOBs when I'm forced to put them against his mummies on the front line. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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May 21, 2008 - 00:11 |
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| PorkusMaximus wrote: | | Quote: | | Isn't there some thing in the rules about that? |
If 50%+ my team is out of action then the game is a foregone conclusion. The only thing that would be gained from continuing would be injuries for my BOBs when I'm forced to put them against his mummies on the front line. |
.... and you'd get the money for playing, and you wouldnt lose the mvp, and you wouldnt auto lose a fan factor. Plus you might learn some more that way too.
The casualties you described are fairly standard, 3 casualties (especially against khemri) really isnt unusual..... actually over more than 100 games my vampire team has achieved a higher cas average than that. Keep trying and try to learn and get better each time. If you duck out once you've decided that you've lost then you harm your team and you seriously stunt your learning. Add to that that some people wont play against you if you concede lots..... and other people will specifically seek you out, which is a bad thing.
Edit: so this is why Thorpe got delusions about WIL even dignifying his challenge |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced."
Last edited by SillySod on %b %21, %2008 - %00:%May; edited 1 time in total |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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May 21, 2008 - 00:13 |
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At least one Thrower is a good idea, wonderfull with Accurate, will give you options other basher teams lack.
I had problems with Orcs too, it was a matter of playstile and I solved it using Goblins as Catchers (Dodge, Stunty and TTM won me games).
Two throwers may be two much untill high TR. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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May 21, 2008 - 00:21 |
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torsoboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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May 21, 2008 - 00:26 |
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Chaos at low TR/TS is one of the easiest teams to beat due to high cost RR and no Blocking players to start out with. Their blockers become interesting at 16spp, while your Orc Blitzers become useful at 6spp.
The rest, well they seem to crumble earlier than orc teams in my experience. Foul out an ogre or a mummy and it's a massive powerswing, much more than the loss of a BOB or a Blitzer. |
_________________
The plural of anecdote isn't data. |
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M'Kari
Joined: Nov 02, 2005
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May 21, 2008 - 00:57 |
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Looking at your 2 games, it looks like you've been out-blocked in both. Maybe, fair enough for the Khemri but certainly not Chaos. As Pac says, Chaos will always struggle at low TR. Once they get towards the TR200 threshhold then they do come into their own but it is still a tough game vs a same TR Orc.
Orcs are, near enough, the most versatile team in the game. They will cause any team a lot of trouble, regardless of the TR (maybe excluding a few uber Zon teams). The best advice I can think of is block, block, throw the occasional block and maybe finish it off with a block. Once the skills come tailor them to what teams you expect to play most. If up against mostly bash, guard, mb and maybe a dp are never a bad choice. You will find that Woodies may dance rings around you and make your boys look like a 3-legged dog trying to chase a Ferrari but if you get lucky at low TR with the lapdancers then you can even turn them over.
Good luck with the team and concede only if your team is really in bad shape. |
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catmando
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
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| Posted:
May 21, 2008 - 00:57 |
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Orcs are, for my buck, the more balanced team around. Try to start with 4 Blitzers and 4 Black Orcs. In my experience, Throwers are optional at the start. The reason I call Throwers optional is because Orcs can be successful without them. Orcs are hard to remove from the field due to their high AV, so take full advantage of it. With an Orc Team, Block & Blitz as often as is practical. Keep pounding the other team, even if the dice aren't being nice to you and all you're getting are Push Backs or whatever. Be relentless, that's what the team was designed for. Your Linemen can score TD's as well as the Blitzers, who are only 1MA faster.
There are several on-line sources that offer suggestions on how to play Orc Teams. There are some right here on Fumbbl.
Never concede a game. Especially when you still have a team strong enough to counterattack and some time left on the clock. |
_________________
"The World makes the Man makes the World." |
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