Aargh
Joined: Apr 07, 2008
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  Posted:
Jul 11, 2008 - 22:27 |
 
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Ok, so I recently made a Vampire team, because it seemed like a fun and challenging team to play.
Seems like it's a bit TOO challenging for me. The Off for a Bite trait is a way bigger problem than I had expected, and with no Dodge or Block anywhere in the team to start with and no fast players they are very unreliable. Now I realise Vamps aren't a very strong team no matter what, but that's not why I picked them anyway. I'm just really hoping they aren't as horrible as they seem to me right now, since out of all the races I've played they seem to be the worst by far.
I've played four games with them so far in which I made a grand total of ONE touchdown, and the only game I haven't lost was against another Vamp team. I do realise four games isn't enough to get a good feel for how they should work, but what I've learned so far has only been that they are even worse than I thought they were. There are other races I'm not good with, but at least most of the time I lose I can identify where I went wrong, and what I should try to learn next game. No such luck with the Vamps.
Any insight here would be appreciated. Hints, tips, strategies, comments on my games... Tell me, people of FUMBBL: How do I not totally suck with Vampires? |
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Charm
Joined: May 17, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2008 - 22:34 |
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I´m not an expert but 4 vamps are way too many for a starting team imo. |
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Ya - haa |
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BroadAsImLong
Joined: Mar 21, 2008
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2008 - 22:36 |
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get 2 vamps max - 11or 12 thralls - 8or9 ff and as many RRs as u can - like 4 to start at least. cos ur gonna need them on blocking and on ofab.
dunno exacts cos i've never made one. |
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veron
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 11, 2008 - 22:39 |
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Think carefully every time if you really need to take an action with a Vampire - if you don't, one less OFAB roll to fail. |
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Aargh
Joined: Apr 07, 2008
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Jul 11, 2008 - 22:42 |
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But if you use mostly Thralls for everything... aren't you just playing a severely gimped Human team? |
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runreallyfast
Joined: Sep 08, 2006
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2008 - 22:46 |
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I feel the best long-term start for vampires is 11 thralls, 9 FF, apothecary, 6 rerolls.
11 thralls with 6 rerolls can do more than you might think. That said, be prepared to lose your early games. After your first game...buy another thrall. Play the thrall team. They are not that bad. If a thrall skills, take dirty player, or dodge on doubles.
Eventually, probably after your second game, you will have enough money for a vampire. Vampires should take dodge as their first skill. Some players prefer pro, but they are wrong, or, at least, they probably didn't start with 6 rerolls. Use the vampire on offense to handle the ball; on defense, use him to hypnotic gaze a path for your thralls to do important stuff.
After you have a vampire or two, if you feel that you want to win matches, restrict yourself from playing against elves or skaven, who don't need to keep the ball in places where a good Gaze or two can allow you to blitz itt. I know that you will be tempted to play these races, but don't give in. Thralls are cheap; and wins give you an extra 10k anyway...and it's not uncommon for vampires to inflict as many casualties on their own side as the opponents, if we count the failed dodges and such in with the OFAB. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Jul 11, 2008 - 22:47 |
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| Aargh wrote: | | But if you use mostly Thralls for everything... aren't you just playing a severely gimped Human team? |
To begin with.
My advice to you would be to start again with a maximum of 1 Vampire, and load up on those RRs. Vampires are a great challenge, but you also have to assume the worst with them, they can (literally) suck so hard you have no chance. On other days, the majesty that is Hyptno Gaze allows you to pull off combinations on defence that makes it all worth while.
They've a style all of their own. Stick with it. If you have more Vampires than RRs, you aren’t winning games. |
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Charm
Joined: May 17, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2008 - 22:48 |
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veron
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2008 - 22:51 |
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| Aargh wrote: | | But if you use mostly Thralls for everything... aren't you just playing a severely gimped Human team? |
There are a lot of times when you want to skip a turn with a Vampire instead of making an action with little effect. For example, in defence position him so that if not much happens in an opponent's turn, you can skip with him in your next turn if you want to. If you have four Vampires in your team and you take an action with each one in every one of your turns, it'll total to 16 x 4 = 64 OFAB rolls, out of which 1/6 in average will fail (10.6). |
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catmando
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
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Jul 11, 2008 - 23:02 |
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Vampire teams are a gamble from the git go. When the Vampires fail their Blood Lust roll, it can be disasterous during a drive. There's really no way to predict what will happen where Vamps are concerned. But, I have read from experienced coaches that the key to reducing these disasters is let the Thralls score more and Vampire players less. The Vampires function alot like Big Guys, except they can use re-rolls when their negative trait roll fails and they have elven-like agility and Hypnotic Gaze. Use them to block or gaze opposing players and create openings for the Thalls to score. But keep in mind that they will fail a Blood Lust roll, so keep a thrall close so you won't have to suffer a turnover. Try to use the same Thrall for several Vampires, that way less Thralls get fed upon. Fewer Thralls get hurt this way.
The Vampires are the only reason I won't coach a Vampire team. With all that can happen to a player during a game, between the blocks, fouls, crowdpushes, failed dodges and GFI's, I can't see playing a team when your own teammates are as much a danger as the opposing players.
Good Luck with your team, see you on the pitch.
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"The World makes the Man makes the World." |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Jul 11, 2008 - 23:10 |
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I am nowhere near to being an accomplished Vampire coach, but I can just about manage to eke out results with them, so while we're waiting for an expert:
First of all, get loads of experience with another team first. I mean, get really good with another team first. When winning with Orcs or Elves is routine, come back to Vampires.
Hmm, that didn't put you off? Okay then. First thing to do is to get your starting team build right. There are dozens of different ways to start an Orc, Human, Skaven, Undead (etc) team and still do well, but Vampires are very unforgiving on this point.
Vampires are expensive, but to be effective they must have re-rolls (which are also expensive). They also aren't much use if they run out of Thralls to eat, and while Thralls are individually cheap, you need a fully stocked larder of them. There's only so much money, and if something's going to go, it logically has to be the Vamps themselves.
The listed Vampire Set-ups variously suggest 1, 2, 3 or even no Vampires at all. 4 is right out! I think most coaches would struggle with 3 or even 2 as well.
I would recommend starting with one Vampire rather than all Thralls though, since having an ST 4 AG 4 guy around (even with all the limitations) really is very handy.
But isn't this just an inferior Human team? Well, at the start, maybe. But you will get more Vampires in time. The thing is, when the team is all without skills, it isn't just the Vampire who'll be eating up re-rolls, but the Thralls too! You need skills on your Thralls and first Vampire (making them more reliable and less likely to consume re-rolls) before you buy your second.
Even then, remember to keep a well-stocked larder! Never buy a Vampire unless you have 10/11/12 (depending on how conservative you are) Thralls in place.
Next, the team is about the Thralls. Thralls really are amazing players on a Vampire team. You can actually select one and move it six squares across the pitch without any chance of killing a team-mate! If your turns are starting with an action by a Vampire, it's a sign that you're in trouble (which, with the best will in the world, is going to happen a lot anyway). There should usually be a few safe moves and blocks you can make with Thralls before you touch a Vamp. And do you even want to do so at all? If your Vampires are in good positions, it's worth asking if activating them is worth the risk of eating a re-roll and/or a team-mate.
In addition, Thralls which get cool rolls (+ST, +AG, interesting doubles, etc) are worth far more than almost any Vampire. Your Vampires must be taught that such Thralls are not food! There are plenty of times when a Vampire vanishing from the pitch is the lesser of two evils.
Well, this advice is all getting a bit ramshackle, but here are a few more points:
Hypnotic Gaze is hugely powerful. No other team has it so only expert Vampire coaches really appreciate its potential. For certain purposes, it's like an extra Blitz action (for some purposes, it's even better). And not just one extra Blitz: potentially, you could have seven!
Hypnotic Gaze can destroy conventional tactics that are solid against every other team. Some of the things it can do: open up cages; remove the TZ of a marker (even one with annoying things like Blodge Side Step); cancel the assist of a key Guard enabling you to make a whole series of two dice blocks. These are just some of the things that I can think of (though not necessarily implement) as a coach with a dozen or so Vampire games. The experienced Vampire coaches can pull off real magic.
The only thing about Hypnotic Gaze is that it's not very reliable: a 3+ for an AG 4 Vamp in only the target's TZ. This means that a Hypnotic Gaze move can be a good thing to do early in a turn. If it works: great, that opens up lots of opportunities that you can then exploit with your remaining actions. If it doesn't, you haven't overcommitted to anything yet, so you can play a more cautious turn and wait for a later opportunity.
And a rather cheaper point: you may not be aware that Vampire teams can hire a Star! He's just not on the Hire Star menu (which is blank). Go to Hire Freebooter and you will find a Vampire Lord who is a dead ringer for Count von Drakenborg. In addition, since Vampire teams are generally weak, opponents may actually accept regular matches against a Vampire team with a Lord (whereas Undead with the Count tend to need to find Smacks).
The Vampire Lord is a good hire if you have spare cash early on but don't feel the team is developed enough to support more regular Vampires yet. What's especially useful about him is that (with that Blodge ST 5) he enables you to try out the tricks (including Hypnotic Gaze) you can pull off with a developed Vampire before you've actually got one (and without the risk of OFAB!). That practice may well be useful when you start to develop your own super-Vamps who make the Lord look like a Rookie.  |
Last edited by pac on %b %15, %2008 - %17:%Jul; edited 9 times in total |
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counterintel
Joined: Jun 12, 2008
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2008 - 23:17 |
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I despise my vampire team. When you fail off for a bite, Its not losing the blitz or foul or block that sucks, its not losing the ability to position the vamps where ever you want all the time, its all of these things combined plus you are also probably removing another player from the turn, or the game, or the roster as well. On a bad turn, you lose a critical blitz, knock a thrall out, and turn the ball over. Big guys lose a turn on a roll of a 1. Vampires roll a 1, and you lose his turn plus your thralls next turn as well many times. If he doesnt get completely raped in general.
It's nearly impossible to inflict more circumstantial devastation on your own team with any other race. |
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Ads
Joined: Mar 21, 2008
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2008 - 23:44 |
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Yes, Vamps are risky, but also can be great fun.... my experience is games tend to go to one extreme or the other. Pac's post is pretty comprehensive(!) but one or two other things...
Don't EVER think your vamps are there mainly for bashing - treat your team like a cheap version of elves team with bad AG, and your vamps (no more than 2 to start!) as your blitzer/wardancer equivalent. No matter how annoying OFAB is, don't underestimate how much your opponents dislike reasonably paced St4 guys who can catch, dodge and wipe out their tackle zones. The vamps themselves get pretty much the best selection of skills from standard rolls in the game... no one likes a ST4 blodger, and if you end up with +ST or +AG you're pretty devestating. Plus, unlike big guys, you can at least reroll if OFAB fails...
I also advise turning one of your thralls into a 'thrower' equivalent early on - if your limiting your number of vamps, you don't want one of them sat at the back picking the ball up 'cos he's the only one passing AG rolls. If you're lucky enough to get +AG (as I was) that's great, but otherwise sure hands gets you started and hold out for those doubles
Make sure you get plenty of RRs, and face the fact that some games you're just going to roll too many ones and get stuffed.... still think they're a thousand times better than ogres.... |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 11, 2008 - 23:53 |
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Also, please note, the big difference between a Big Guy and a Vampire is that even if a Big Guy passes his nega-trait roll, he's still not going to do that much. Move his Guard somewhere else. Maybe block someone (but expect to need three dice to get a knock down, to turn over if you don't have Block (sometimes even if you do) and don't count on his MB winning you any prizes either!). On the other hand, if the Vampire passes his nega-trait roll, he can go on to do some really quite amazing things … And even when he fails it, he not only keeps his TZ like a Wild Animal, he gets to move too!  |
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Agenda42
Joined: Jan 01, 2008
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Jul 11, 2008 - 23:56 |
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If you want to get better with vampires, spec princevaliant's games.
If you want to have better results in general, start playing with a team that's not listed under the "these teams are intentionally harder to play with" list. Vamps are a difficult team to do well with, largely because thralls are 10k overcosted. |
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