nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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 Posted:
Sep 27, 2008 - 15:40 |
 
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I'm not sure about this thread, because there is reasonable consensus on +st, but +ma or +ag are more context dependent. (Example: you are getting into a tournament and Block sounds too appealing)
Some gidelines could be fine, but they'll fail to cover all the cases (unless the list of options gets really long)
A side effect could be unexperienced players sticking to the letter of this thread when they are in a situation not covered.
(On the matter of avoiding "What skill should I pick" threads... when the existence of a previous thread has stoped someone posting there without doing a quick search?)
Still, this is roughly what I do:
Allways take stat increases because they are good on many players and potentially fu on the rest.
Exceptions can be made for 5+5 rolls. (Example: Skaven, allways take the double, more fun).
Some more exceptions due to tricky team management. (Example: Wood Elf linemen with +ma are great, but sometimes you just need more LOS matherial, and there are ma8 and ma9 players on the team) |
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Kryten
Joined: Sep 02, 2003
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I don't think I would take +MA on a wood elf lineman - they need to have dodge/block right away to be useful, and sidestep is a superior third skill. MA 7 is already really fast, and there are catchers and wardancers that are faster still.
My rules, such as they are:
1. Don't take +MA if the player needs other skills first for survival (example: wood elf lineman)
2. Don't take +MA if you can't reasonably exploit it (example: zombie)
2. Don't take +MA if the player's role isn't improved by it (example: rotter)
Reasons to take +MA:
1. Players that handle the ball.
2. Players that blitz.
3. Players that are slow and strong (mummies, treemen)
4. You are the fastest player on your team
5. You already have the base skills of your position, or require few skills (dwarf linemen) |
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Plorg
Joined: May 08, 2005
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Sep 29, 2008 - 23:41 |
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I agree with the following:
| Kinks wrote: | Obviously yes for trees.
Always yes on a thrower. |
If "Thrower" includes anyone with Sure Hands who regularly picks up the ball on your team, then yes +MA is good.
| Manbush wrote: | | I ALWAYS take move on mummies, and if I ever use a treeman Id take any move on that too. |
I forgot to include this point in my first post, but yes, players with 3 MA or less would do much better with +MA due to the inherent stand up rolls for <=2 MA Treemen and for 3 MA mummies being able to stand up and blitz an adjacent player without rolling GFI.
| Kryten wrote: | My rules, such as they are:
1. Don't take +MA if the player needs other skills first for survival (example: wood elf lineman)
2. Don't take +MA if you can't reasonably exploit it (example: zombie)
2. Don't take +MA if the player's role isn't improved by it (example: rotter)
Reasons to take +MA:
1. Players that handle the ball.
2. Players that blitz.
3. Players that are slow and strong (mummies, treemen)
4. You are the fastest player on your team
5. You already have the base skills of your position, or require few skills (dwarf linemen) |
I like this list, although "2. Players that blitz" covers a lot of cases where I would not personally prefer +MA.
I do prefer +MA on developed players and I don't prefer +MA on undeveloped players.
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| JanMattys wrote: | This whole "Should I take XXXX" thing is stupid.
First, you have to state what's your goal. Want to maxx the team for the TR it has now, or have a go at trying to have a better team in the future?
These two approaches rarely cohexist.
A +ma blitzer is worse than a guard one "as a player", but might become much better later.
So first state what's your goal, and then you can go on and decide whether taking a +stat or a double is good or bad. |
How many "should my player take X?" threads are made by new coaches where they actually state what their subgoal is?
How many of them even know what their subgoal is?
Like the "Skill Selection Survey" and the help topics on strategies and rosters, experienced coaches can voice their opinions so that new coaches can read them.
But according to you, we should not even have this discussion in a Tactics and Strategy forum?
JanMattys, I think your condescending resistance to the existence of this discussion is stupid. Fair enough? |
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ibambe
Joined: Jun 27, 2005
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Sep 30, 2008 - 00:16 |
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I just debated taking +MA on this guy for a good bit.
He aged on his first roll of 6/4, -av.
His team could really use some guys for the LOS, alas with -av he seemed he'd not last long, if I gave him block. With the option of getting more catchers, an overpriced woodelf lineman seemed like a waste as well.
In the end, I went with DP. I needed one anyway and now he might actually last a bit longer. Besides, I feel like without block or dodge and -av, he'll attract blitz attention away from the more valuable +ag players...until he croaks anyway. Not sure if it was the best decision, but it seemed best to me. |
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Pro511
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
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Sep 30, 2008 - 05:47 |
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That's an interesting choice actually. I might have been so disheartened by the -av that i'd have cut him. But DP seems to be a pretty good choice. DP guys are generally pretty protected anyway and might get thrown out before they're injured.
The problem is then you've got a 70K goblin.  |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Sep 30, 2008 - 13:57 |
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If the player is a vampire then you MUST take the +Ma. Thralls should only take it if:
- they are already blockers and...
- it wasnt a double 5 and..
- you already have a kicker and sufficient DPs |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Sep 30, 2008 - 14:22 |
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| Plorg wrote: | | JanMattys, I think your condescending resistance to the existence of this discussion is stupid. Fair enough? |
Of course! 
It's just that you keep linking your threads whenever you see the "Should I take ST" question, which is fine because you pretty much covered all the reasons (and the maths) behind the 6+6 roll. Which is nice, but also quite easy, don't you think?
+MAs and (to a lesser extent) +AGs are much more problematic, much more subjective, and being a top coach you can't really expect to come up with *the* perfect and universally valid guidelines for such choices. Your scientific approach to +ST was interesting and very well put out, but for +MAs is obviously useless. (can't decide about +AGs, though, I'll give you that).
Hope you can see my point. I tried to make it a bit clearer now, and a bit less offensive towards your (imho useless) noble effort to write the Code of Laws of Bloodbowl Stats Picking.
But again: of course it's fair to consider my point of view "stupid". People better than you have already accepted that as standard policy when dealing with me, and it seems to work quite fine for them so far |
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Pirrekurr
Joined: Mar 11, 2004
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Sep 30, 2008 - 15:18 |
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Since I almost always play zons, my thoughts are about zon teams.
+MA is a very good choice on zons since everyone have ma6, and it could really make a difference. This is true when talking about linewomen and catchers at least. When it comes down to throwers I would definetely choose it, but maybe take strong arm if it is a double 5's roll. But then I love to pass with my zons, even though they suck at it. On blitzers though, I would not chose +MA on a double 5's roll, since stand firm blodgers are too good to say no to. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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Sep 30, 2008 - 15:42 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | | +MAs and (to a lesser extent) +AGs are much more problematic, much more subjective, and being a top coach you can't really expect to come up with *the* perfect and universally valid guidelines for such choices. Your scientific approach to +ST was interesting and very well put out, but for +MAs is obviously useless. |
I think this thread will have to grow much larger before that uselessness becomes obvious! In any case, I don't see why further discussion of the various contexts in which MA might or might not be chosen should be unwelcome. He may not be able to come up with "*the* perfect and universally valid guidelines", but that doesn't mean nothing interesting will be learnt attempting to do so.  |
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Plorg
Joined: May 08, 2005
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Sep 30, 2008 - 20:30 |
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I certainly do not expect either the +AG or +MA threads ever to come up with answers as clear cut as +ST.
I do hope there can be a strong list of general heuristics and exceptions, probably encased in very specific contexts,
much like the example of Gutter Runners completing a Horns/Dauntless combo with their 6,6 instead of taking +ST...
There does seem to be strong consensus for specific positions like the Treeman or Mummy "always" taking +MA and "probably not" taking +AG.
If these threads end up becoming giant spreadsheets of roster positions and their specific recommendations then so be it,
but distilling the reasons for the choices as a list of things to consider seems a decent approach to the (admittedly general) questions. |
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funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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Feb 04, 2009 - 02:58 |
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I tend to take the doubles on 5, 5. But it depends on the team. Doubles for Norse is more guard, but movement on a Mummy or longbeard is a must. Other than the 5s, I would always take the movement. |
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Zombie69
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
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Feb 04, 2009 - 07:26 |
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Assuming it's not double 5, i'll take it on almost everyone. On a double 5, only treemen would take it. And even that's been a mistake on my wood elf team when the treeman subsequently rolled 6+4 twice but didn't roll another double for block.
On 6+4, the only players i wouldn't take the MA for would be line-elves, because they come with no skills at all, and their access to general and agility means they can easily get 5 skills that are better than the MA (block, dodge, side step, tackle, diving tackle) and many others that are arguably just as good (kick, dirty player, pro, and i'm probably forgetting one or two).
On anybody else, i'll take the MA. It may not always be the strongest choice for the player in the short term (things like block, dodge, guard and mighty blow are all obviously better), but in the long run, once the player improves, the MA will be a welcome addition and i'll be glad i took it. Because for me long term is the most important aspect and short term is only a way to get there, it's worth it having a slightly weaker player for now to have a better one later.
Oh, another exception where i wouldn't take the MA would be a big guy that already has all strength skills, because every roll can then be used as a double. So in that case, rolling 6+4 is just like rolling a double 5! |
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Lithuran
Joined: Jun 01, 2007
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Feb 04, 2009 - 08:21 |
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The fast need to be faster!
Being slightly less slow doesn't do much.
And yea no good on an unskilled av 7. |
Last edited by Lithuran on %b %04, %2009 - %09:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Thomcat
Joined: Jul 20, 2004
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Feb 04, 2009 - 08:39 |
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On Teams with MA 6 or less I will on 6+4 take the MA.
Same on Trees and Throwers.
On skavens and ma 7+ elves I would never take the MA. They have MA enough and a normal skill would be more useful to me.
Also I often decline +MA on skill - roll 1 on linos without block. Simply because block is more useful for the team in the shortrun and will protect that player much more.
5+5 is to me a double unless no great skills are available.
This is in general - there are weird races like Vampires (themselves not thralls) who has access to most of the skill Catagories that +Ma is more appealing. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Feb 04, 2009 - 10:03 |
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I almost always takes the double on 5+5.
If it's a player's first skill, I take +MA as he can become a real good player (if he dies, whatever).
So genrally I take +MA on non double unless:
->the player did skill and is on a specific combo route (exemple: Block+AG+pass block. Or a claw CW)
->the player is a niggler or -stat on a specific temporary use (foul, linefodding) |
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