SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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 Posted:
Dec 09, 2008 - 01:30 |
 
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What Fallen00 is trying to say is that there are two problems with the current TS formula:
- zero RR teams might be handicapped but the TS formula over-compensates for this.
- handicaps can have a peculiar effect. If you have a very high TR for your TS you will almost never face a team which is higher TS than your own, only one which has three handicaps. In some cases this is a big advantage, in others it really isnt. We should look very closely at how to price handicaps though.
While I want the zero RR "abuse" to be resolved I dont think we should change it immediately - zero RR teams run by remotely competant coaches is a fairly uncharted territory. What I'm planning on doing is playing around with this and other weak points of the TS formula while asking some of the better coaches on the site what they think various things are worth and where they've seen the TS formula fail. As I do that I'll draw up a list of items that need addressing and a list of recommended fixes for the TS formula.. once I'm happy with it I'll post it in a thread for everyone to knock around and hopefully Christer will implement some of the changes suggested. The only reason I'm going to do it alone (although with alot of input from other coaches) is because trying to form up some sort of commitee that includes Britnoth (and others) would be hellish, not everyone gets along well with Britnoth and he dosent get along well with them - its much easier to cut all of that out by speaking to people directly and in relatively small groups (and yes, I'd really value Brithnoths input on this one). |
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funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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Dec 09, 2008 - 02:13 |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Dec 09, 2008 - 10:36 |
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The only exploit is the fact, that you can get 1 RR via leader and still get the -10TS penalty. Else you WILL need rerolls rather sooner than later. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Dec 09, 2008 - 11:58 |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 09, 2008 - 12:25 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | The only exploit is the fact, that you can get 1 RR via leader and still get the -10TS penalty. Else you WILL need rerolls rather sooner than later. |
Same goes for halfling chefs. Even without the leader exploit... its still potentially quite a powerful setup. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 09, 2008 - 12:58 |
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Not that I'm any good in math, or that I would actually understand the complexity of the TS calculations, I would be happy to play vs some 0RR teams... Eventually they all fail a roll, and that's when I'll get the ball... 1RR for leader, I wouldnt really be worried about that. The halfling chef stealing my precious RRs, now that would be a problem for me  |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Dec 09, 2008 - 13:00 |
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I think that the 0 RR factor is adequatly priced. Halflings show that impressively, how big of a disadvantage it is to have 0 rerolls. If the leader exploit is fixed (so that 0 RR with Leader only gets -5 and 1RR with Leader gets no TS modification), then I don`t see any major inaccuracy in the number of rerolls. |
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SeraphimRed
Joined: Feb 01, 2004
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Dec 09, 2008 - 13:28 |
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I'd agree with CL.
Absolute 0RRs is leaving your team far more open to a 'dicing' it can't ever be truly competitive imo. My game with Grit last night saw me roll at least four double skulls in the game and he wasn't far behind. |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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| Posted:
Dec 09, 2008 - 15:30 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | If the leader exploit is fixed (so that 0 RR with Leader only gets -5 and 1RR with Leader gets no TS modification), then I don`t see any major inaccuracy in the number of rerolls. |
I agree with this. -10/-5 TS discounts for 0 or 1 rerolls should be calculated INCLUSIVE of Leader rerolls.
EDIT:
The reroll TS discount might still be open to exploitation... some teams are much less reroll dependent than others.
This team is a good example:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&showmatches=1&team_id=514555 |
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Fallen00
Joined: Oct 16, 2008
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Dec 09, 2008 - 18:40 |
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actually I was mistaken, playing with no rerolls in [B] is more for teambuilding than anything else. Its hard to cherrypick in [b], but playing with no reroll makes it easier to make a team last longer. As you will always be fighting teams less stronger than yours, which means less casualties(at least I believe so).
is that abusing the TS system? or is there something wrong with the TS cost of rerolls? makes one ponder. |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Dec 09, 2008 - 18:44 |
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I personnaly wouldn't fear a reroll-less team. IMO you end up screwed sooner or later, more often than not.
And IMO, teambuilding shouldn't be the highest priority in blackbox as you never know who you're going to play |
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funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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Dec 11, 2008 - 04:30 |
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I sorta cherrypicked in Blackbox. The match was overall fair dice, just some bad ones in the wrong places for my opponent.
I basically made a Khemri team with 4 Mummies, a Throw-Ra, and 6 Skeletons along with 9 FF and 2 rerolls. My TS was a 92 I think. I was trying to get a team that was beat up and I did. I got a 10 player Dark Elf team.
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&op=view&id=2458166
Like I said not really a bad match up, but it did work... |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Dec 11, 2008 - 04:34 |
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funny, yeah, but if you'd draw a noob dorf team you would have got torn to bits.... even a 10 man dorf team... so, its a gamble. |
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Draxus
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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Dec 11, 2008 - 05:40 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | I think that the 0 RR factor is adequatly priced. Halflings show that impressively, how big of a disadvantage it is to have 0 rerolls. If the leader exploit is fixed (so that 0 RR with Leader only gets -5 and 1RR with Leader gets no TS modification), then I don`t see any major inaccuracy in the number of rerolls. |
That is too much TS... a leader reroll does not = to 1 regular RR in regards to practical team strength.
A team of 12 goats 1rr with one goat skilled up to say <sure hands>
Should be stronger than a team of 12 goats 0rr one goat skilled up with leader.
and to call it "the leader exploit" is also too much... |
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PTGMach
Joined: Oct 12, 2008
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Dec 11, 2008 - 07:21 |
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| Draxus wrote: |
A team of 12 goats 1rr with one goat skilled up to say <sure hands>
Should be stronger than a team of 12 goats 0rr one goat skilled up with leader.
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of course the former is going to be stronger. you have the reroll -and- a skill. the latter, you only have the RR.
i do agree, though, that a Leader RR shouldn't be worth as much as a roster RR, because it's more restricted in use. |
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