pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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 Posted:
Nov 15, 2008 - 00:17 |
 
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\o/ there is no esacpe from the justice that is [B] |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 16, 2008 - 03:06 |
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BR affecting match ups is not a good way to go.
Two teams that match up fairly in TR/TS is a fair game no matter who the coaches are. I come here to play games where the result isn't known before kick off (and why should I, that's boring).
I don't know about anyone else but if I get an even TS game vs someone like Synn or Emphasy, I will most likely get stomped into the ground quite badly. Now, if I got drawn in a game where I had a massive TS advantage I could probably win... but the victory would certainly feel hollow and I would learn nothing from it. It would be a waste of time. I would rather take a beating and struggle and be forced to think. |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 16, 2008 - 04:06 |
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| Christer wrote: | Consider the following:
- Ideally, the scheduler will set up matches that give every coach a 50% theoretical chance to win.
- To do this, the system uses TS and BR (blackbox ranking) as factors for the scheduler.
Since people are expected to play to win, this is good in theory. However, a coach who plays a bashy style and focuses more on bashing than winning the game (not necessarily on purpose) will cause a slight problem. Coaches who bash "too much" will get a lower BR and therefore the most naïve scheduler will pair them up against lower TS teams. This will, of course, only result in that the bashy team has an even easier time to bash the opponent's team down. In the extreme case, this will continue until the bashy coach is so lowly ranked that his TS advantage in games will become nearly impossible to overcome and a "killer team" is created.
I am currently considering ways to overcome this spiral. |
Deciding matchups with the predefined plan of making every game a 50/50 chance is the problem. Its an inherent design mistake.
What is the point of a division with blind opponents? Isnt it to give yourself a mixture of races and coaches to play against which are fair games - so you can judge your skill better than others and enjoy close games?
If you adjust teams based on how good the coaches are, what is the incentive to actually get better at the game? Whether you win or lose doesnt matter, as if you lose next game will be easier and so you are more likely to win.
As you already pointed out, anyone who plays for cas not wins is going to love this division. As things work right now, being good at the game and winning matches rewards you by giving you less and less enjoyable games. |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Nov 16, 2008 - 05:21 |
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so brit...
out of curiosity...
when are you actually going to try Blackbox?
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Nov 16, 2008 - 10:18 |
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I'm a bit concerned that Brit has a point. 
And, I'm not convinced he needs to have had a go to be allowed it / for it to be reasonable....
I'm going to lie down, I'm clearly ill.  |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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Nov 16, 2008 - 17:50 |
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Brit does have a solid point here. I have a CD team that has done pretty well. I think as a result, their BR is pretty high. As such, I find myself with the following schedule.
The latest match.... went like this:
<BowlBot> Scheduling Lewdgrip vs Synn @922
Matchup
How does a 922 match look like a +36 TS difference?
If I wanted to play matches with that kind of difference on account of some "skill" number (BR, CR).... I would have remained in Ranked.
The idea that there should be a 50/50 chance of winning is admirable, but in practice it faels. I don't want to play up TS every match. 8 of my last 10 matches with this team has been up at least 10 TS.
__Synn |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Nov 16, 2008 - 18:09 |
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Ok, BR really has to go, both on ideological and practical terms.
It will kill [B] unless the way it works changes...
I know we are in alpha, but this is one issue that needs the kink worked out of it. I dont come ehre to play communist / sandal-wearing / hippe/ no one wins / everone have a cookie - 50% win ration BB. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 16, 2008 - 18:16 |
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| pythrr wrote: | | Ok, BR really has to go, both on ideological and practical terms. |
BR dosent have to go, but maybe it shouldnt be part of the matchmaking formula (or maybe it should be a much more minor part of it). |
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UberEvil
Joined: Oct 20, 2003
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Nov 16, 2008 - 18:20 |
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Here's another vote for not using BR in the matchup. I don't want the good coaches to have any such excuse when I kick their jolly little behinds ;D |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Nov 16, 2008 - 18:21 |
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well, yes - as the rest of my post went on to say (kink worked out) - stop cherry picking my posts Silleh! |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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Nov 16, 2008 - 18:21 |
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Yeah I find it odd to have a statement that says "- Ideally, the scheduler will set up matches that give every coach a 50% theoretical chance to win." and then go on and add coach performances into the equation. Equal TR/TS = Fair game = equal opportunity to win. Skill should not be a mathematical factor. A Coaches supposed ranking and previous results should not enter into it. Ever.
I don't even see the point of why a 50% win ratio for teams and coaches is something to aim for? In theory any two equal teams have 50% chance to win any one given game. But some players are better then others... why punish them for it? |
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Nextflux
Joined: Jan 22, 2008
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Nov 16, 2008 - 18:26 |
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Could someone please explain how exactly BR works, does it follow the coach or the team ?
Both is bad though, if it follow the coach it is prone to abuse (just create some stupid/fun teams to loose with and to get lower BR)
if it follows the team, it will statistically end up in a 50-50 win/loss ratio (= no fun).
On the positive side, the box offers better matchups in periodes (good coaches vs good coaches) , I see the fun in that.
But I dont think it will work the more games that are played.
eventually you will end up in getting 50-50 win/loss and then your opponent will be drawn randomly again, the more games that are played, the more random it gets (if the BR follows the team) .
So if we want get benefits of good matchups, the BR has to be modified..
less than 11 players gives a negative TS bonus, high BR rating a positive (but not a significant factor!)
also I dislike to meet teams double my own TS strenght or more, I think there should be some limit to how much better teams you can meet .. |
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funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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Nov 16, 2008 - 18:29 |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Nov 16, 2008 - 18:50 |
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| Synn wrote: | Brit does have a solid point here. I have a CD team that has done pretty well. I think as a result, their BR is pretty high. As such, I find myself with the following schedule.
The latest match.... went like this:
<BowlBot> Scheduling Lewdgrip vs Synn @922
Matchup
How does a 922 match look like a +36 TS difference?
If I wanted to play matches with that kind of difference on account of some "skill" number (BR, CR).... I would have remained in Ranked.
The idea that there should be a 50/50 chance of winning is admirable, but in practice it faels. I don't want to play up TS every match. 8 of my last 10 matches with this team has been up at least 10 TS.
__Synn |
That was exactly my point, which is why I don`t play [B] anymore. |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 16, 2008 - 18:50 |
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^^ well, forrest is a BR star!!! |
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