| Poll |
| Do you want BR in the Formula? |
| Yes - And if it is removed, I will likely leave Blackbox |
|
4% |
[ 10 ] |
| Yes - But I would play Blackbox regardless |
|
23% |
[ 53 ] |
| No - But I would play Blackbox regardless |
|
39% |
[ 91 ] |
| No - And if it remains, I will likely leave Blackbox |
|
20% |
[ 48 ] |
| Unsure - I have not decided, or do not understand BR |
|
12% |
[ 28 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 230 |
|
CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
|
 Posted:
Nov 17, 2008 - 13:44 |
 
|
Conspirocy!
Christer just incorporates BR on purpose to lower popularity of [B], so that it will die and not threaten precious [R]!!  |
|
|
PhrollikK
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
|
| Posted:
Nov 17, 2008 - 13:47 |
|
I would rather see the Bowlbot calculate your chances based on your teams' win-record and nothing else. If you play a team crappily then some deficit might be afforded for your sake to get more even games. If this would lead to a 50/50 win situation then the games are even and job well done!(?) |
_________________
Visit my MiniCity
Mega Punk!
Malicious Rex, Daemon Adoptable |
|
oryx
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
|
| Posted:
Nov 17, 2008 - 14:24 |
|
BBR does legitimize t16 fouling - if you are playing a team that is reasonably dangerous to yours (say, killer chaos or mb orcs or some such), and the pool of opponents is small, AND you don't want to play them again, then causing more cas not only increases your BBR, but increases the chance that they won't raise their BR or BBR next game, thereby increasing the chances that you won't play them again soon!
Has anything ever legitimized t16 fouling before? woot! |
|
|
CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
|
| Posted:
Nov 17, 2008 - 15:10 |
|
On the contrary. If you play bashers and you don`t want to face them again, then cause as little cas as possible. By this you are getting a more favorable matchup against them TS wise. As they are bashers and you got bashed, they are most likely ahead of you TS wise after the game, making it less likely to face them again compared to the T16 foul-kill scenario. |
|
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
Nov 17, 2008 - 16:18 |
|
| DukeTyrion wrote: | | koadah wrote: | This is an ALPHA system. Are you sure that all this discussion is not just over a bug? 
Until Christer responds I charge Duke with scaremongering. |
Well, Christer has responded and it is now confirmed that BR is part of the matching formula.
It is also clear from this thread that most do not want BR in the formula.
However, it's Christer's decision at the end of the day, our choice is simply whether we play or not. |
Sure, but he didn't comment on this 50% rule.
Some of the huge TS differences were down to a bug and he has tweaked the formula to try to improve that.
BR can be used in the scheduler without aiming for the full 50% win chance.
Using a good scheduler we can get better match ups than with a purely random set up. Your posts seem to suggest it's 50% or nothing hence the charge of scaremongering |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
|
DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
|
| Posted:
Nov 17, 2008 - 17:02 |
|
| koadah wrote: | | DukeTyrion wrote: | | koadah wrote: | This is an ALPHA system. Are you sure that all this discussion is not just over a bug?
Until Christer responds I charge Duke with scaremongering. |
Well, Christer has responded and it is now confirmed that BR is part of the matching formula.
It is also clear from this thread that most do not want BR in the formula.
However, it's Christer's decision at the end of the day, our choice is simply whether we play or not. |
Sure, but he didn't comment on this 50% rule.
Some of the huge TS differences were down to a bug and he has tweaked the formula to try to improve that.
BR can be used in the scheduler without aiming for the full 50% win chance.
Using a good scheduler we can get better match ups than with a purely random set up. Your posts seem to suggest it's 50% or nothing hence the charge of scaremongering |
| Christer wrote: | Consider the following:
- Ideally, the scheduler will set up matches that give every coach a 50% theoretical chance to win.
- To do this, the system uses TS and BR (blackbox ranking) as factors for the scheduler.
Since people are expected to play to win, this is good in theory. However, a coach who plays a bashy style and focuses more on bashing than winning the game (not necessarily on purpose) will cause a slight problem. Coaches who bash "too much" will get a lower BR and therefore the most naïve scheduler will pair them up against lower TS teams. This will, of course, only result in that the bashy team has an even easier time to bash the opponent's team down. In the extreme case, this will continue until the bashy coach is so lowly ranked that his TS advantage in games will become nearly impossible to overcome and a "killer team" is created.
I am currently considering ways to overcome this spiral. |
No Koadah, it was Christer's post that suggested the 50% chance to win, so before you start throwing around accusations, perhaps you should read all the facts  |
|
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
Nov 17, 2008 - 17:18 |
|
| DukeTyrion wrote: | | No Koadah, it was Christer's post that suggested the 50% chance to win, so before you start throwing around accusations, perhaps you should read all the facts Wink |
The accusations are meant fun. Apologies if they have been taken in any other way.
"Ideally" to me suggests that he would like to do it but wouldn't necessarily implement it that way.
Christer's message was sent back in August. So not necessarily his view today. Hence the request for clarification. |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
|
DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
|
| Posted:
Nov 17, 2008 - 17:20 |
|
| koadah wrote: | | The accusations are meant fun. Apologies if they have been taken in any other way. |
No need to apologise, I knew it was meant in humour, hence the wink at the end of my reply. |
|
|
SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
|
| Posted:
Nov 18, 2008 - 02:18 |
|
| Quote: | | No Koadah, it was Christer's post that suggested the 50% chance to win, so before you start throwing around accusations, perhaps you should read all the facts |
Koadahs point was that that post was what, 3 months old is not older? Personally I wouldnt read too much into something someone lists as an ideal when they're still brainstorming and months away from alpha testing |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
|
pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
|
| Posted:
Nov 18, 2008 - 02:21 |
|
pie! and let it bake (alpha) for a month or two.... |
_________________
 |
|
KenThis
Joined: Jun 28, 2007
|
| Posted:
Nov 19, 2008 - 19:20 |
|
I want to play games based on TR/TS level and racial characteristics.
BUT I want to play Coaches similar to my own level first and foremost.
I don't see the point of handicapping a coach because he's good or giving an advantage to a coach because he is bad.
BUT I don't see the point of a very good coach playing a very bad coach with equal TR/TS teams.
What can either coach possibly get out of such a game.
I understand that the very best coaches don't want to keep playing up in TR/TS BUT surely they wouldn't enjoy just beating the crud outta any new/rubbish coach with equal TR/TS teams.
Otherwise why don't these great coaches spend all their time in academy teaching the noobs.
Surely the majorities idea of fun is to play in evenly matched and close exciting games where skill and luck both play a part in the possibility of winning.
I don't think the best weay of doing this is with handicapping.
I think the best way of doing this is to match coaches on ability and equal team strength.
As for those who want to play the best to be able to improve.
Before you can run you have to be able to walk.
Before you are given the chance to test the big boys then beat the little boys first.
As you improve you will face better and better opponents.
Until finally you will be able to try your luck against the best players.
Similarly if you are a great player then you have to keep winning to prove it and still be able to play against the best.
This is how most ladder systems work in the world of sport in any competitive sport there are different leagues. you have to excell in your division before you progress up the divisions.
The only time you can have the magic of a rank outsider beating a top player is during cup competitions .
So keep the time for having teams paired solely on basis of TR/TS just for cup competitions in BlackBox.
A new idea for how to stop people from metagaming just to be able to get an advantage in the black box system or else otherwise prevent Stealth Picking would be to attach a separate BR for every race you coach.
If you are very good at scoring lots of cas with one racial team and very good at scoring lots of tds (win a lot) with another then your BR rating for the winning team would be high.
The BR rating for the killer chaos would be low.
That way you would not be able to play the top teams with your bash team but you would be able to play with your high scoring (win a lot) team.
If you are a high scoring (win a lot) and high cas making team then obviously you still get to play against other teams that also play to win.
Anyhow if you read all that thanks. and if you have any thoughts feel free to pm me |
|
|
PTGMach
Joined: Oct 12, 2008
|
| Posted:
Nov 19, 2008 - 21:35 |
|
KenThis has stated my own opinion pretty well spot-on. |
|
|
pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
|
| Posted:
Nov 19, 2008 - 22:05 |
|
| pythrr wrote: | | I am terrible at chess. You can't foul things in chess. |
They told you that and you believed them? Sucker!  |
|
|
Shimin
Joined: Feb 16, 2006
|
| Posted:
Nov 19, 2008 - 22:20 |
|
Well, personally i voted no to BR but still play.
I was actually dissapointed to find out that my games get easier as i play worse!
IF BR is to be used at all, it should only be at a very low level of tweaking, suggesting a slight lowering of the curves. (hence a coach with 111/20/3 would get more like 102/26/6) aiming towards the 50% (or rather the 33%/33%/33%) would really destroy the game.
And another reason for NOT implementing the BR (or at least keep it to a very low rate) PAULHICKS!!! (Stealing candy from children i say)
And since i expected hard opposition i made a hardplaying human team that so far has the record 1/7/1, 10-10, 14/17/4 - 10/5/5
I am actually outbashing my opponents with humans, couldnt understand how that could happen... But now i guess why, it has been towards winning and since i have pushed on the bashing and stayed low on the scoring, i have gotten easier opponents that i could easily outbash, like 2xKhemri, 2x Orc, 2x ogre, 1x norse, 1x chaos, 1x halflings)
I dont get it actually... Only team to outbash me, was the norse team in game 1....
How is that (and no, although i have DP, i havent used them that often (as i dont GTR with my low FF))
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&showmatches=1&team_id=508076
BTW, the teams name translates to: Lost Cause |
|
|
Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
|
| Posted:
Nov 19, 2008 - 22:26 |
|
| Shimin wrote: | | And another reason for NOT implementing the BR (or at least keep it to a very low rate) PAULHICKS!!! (Stealing candy from children i say) |
Dude, seriously. Worst argument ever...
You obviously have no clue what you're talking about... makes you look a bit like a dumb-ass. Although that might be ok |
_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
|
|
|
| |
Jump up on a tree?
Search
