MSpanke
Joined: Jun 06, 2006
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Nov 18, 2008 - 13:25 |
 
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Keep up the good work. Box = more games for me  |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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The most important thing [B] needs it has, which is a strong direction and the leadership to take it there.
The format doesnt appeal to me, but does to many and hence is a welcome addition to the site in my opinion. No doubt i will dip in again and have another go after it settles down a bit.
But even with its stated goals i am still a little adrift as to the presence of Mirror matches on the list of factors to be wieghed. Could we have some qulaification as to why mirror matches are to avoided? Because surely we want some of the claw/rsc+dp chaos to face their own kind, and Dorfs to face a wall of guard, and Orcs to feel the thrill of facing 4 STR4 and skilled average speed as well, and Khemri to be trimmed by other 4+MB wielding monsters with many a DP friend.
Im pretty sure elf fanciers would still like the odd game against other elves too (though with 4 elf races that isnt as precluded)
So why is Mirror matches a problem at all? |
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Barbarus hic ego sum, quia non intelligor illis -Ovid
I am a barbarian here because i am not understood by anyone |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Nov 18, 2008 - 13:33 |
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First: thankyou Christer for DivB
Second: Just as Pirog, I don't want to sound too negative, but I think you are mixing Blackbox and Quickgame features. The compromise is to try and make one thing out of something that should be TWO things.
So, this is my question, because being confrontational doesn't help, while being propositive does:
Christer, Is there any chance that you create a QuickGame feature in R (working more or less on the principles you're using now), and give us a PURE Blackbox division only based on TS matchups for us hardcorers?
I'd love an answer to that, if possible. I'll play in DivB anyway, but I think a ts-only blackbox would be the best thing ever, and compromising on that makes me (and many others, I think) a very sad panda.
Jan |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 18, 2008 - 13:34 |
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Could it be that the mirror match ups would happen too easily for people's first games, since the teams are build quite a like usually (there arent that many different ways you can build them), the TS would usually be equal, and you would end up playing the same race for your first game? Cant really come up with another reason... Sure we would like for those advanced chaos teams to destroy each other.
I looked at some of the higher chaos teams, and they do look like they are gonna play less against other chaos teams, than my skaven or norse. So, if there is a race I hate to play against, all I have to do is create a team of that race? Doesnt sound like a good idea  |
Last edited by odi on %b %18, %2008 - %13:%Nov; edited 1 time in total |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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Nov 18, 2008 - 13:43 |
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I'm really enjoying the BBox.
That said, I also supose that there will be some controversity.
For example I too would like a competitive division where pairings were made based on teams and not coach skill (not sure about racial factors either).
I don't mind getting paired mostly against top coaches if my record is good enougth. But if a worse record means I won't play against the really good ones or that I'll get TS advantage whenever I face them, that's a bit discouraging.
I've some (very little, Christer really has done an impresive work) concern about this scheduler with so many parameters making some matches too unlikely or aislating some teams or coaches.
For example, just now my Ogres are about TS70 and I've played enougth with Skaven to have a low BBR and a high BR, and I don't know if that'll make playing them too unlikely.
On a sidenote, if BBox losses a bit of the competitive edge to make games more balanced, may be it could have some of the "extras" of [R]anked, like Champioship, Tournaments, or Awards (probably not the same, but it's own)
Still, with all the good fun that has been BBox for me so far, all the above seems almost unoticeable. |
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f0rd
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
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Nov 18, 2008 - 13:50 |
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I´m with stupid (JanM in this case) |
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Chuck Norris can divide by zero. |
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clarkin
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
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Nov 18, 2008 - 13:54 |
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| odi wrote: | | The only problem with the scheduler I've had so far, is it hasnt given my gobbos any victims yet, it always seems to find a match for either my skaven or norse |
Since I made gobbos my cdwarves haven't been scheduled once  |
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odi
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 18, 2008 - 13:55 |
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| clarkin wrote: | | odi wrote: | | The only problem with the scheduler I've had so far, is it hasnt given my gobbos any victims yet, it always seems to find a match for either my skaven or norse |
Since I made gobbos my cdwarves haven't been scheduled once |
So unfair |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Nov 18, 2008 - 14:00 |
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Even if it's not the point in this debate, but I see no problem to add the BR to the formula as a decision.
Let's forget for a second TS or ranking formulas. Suppose you play, mmm, zons. You have a coach, weaker than you, trying to challenge you with dorfs.
You may win, or lose, but it's a challenge. And that's great no?
Actually, asking for ranking to be a non-factor means, for an average coach, to have sometimes silly matchups easily won, sometimes to be outplayed totally instead of having a challenge everytime. |
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Hogshine
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Nov 18, 2008 - 14:13 |
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| f0rd wrote: | | I´m with stupid (JanM in this case) |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Nov 18, 2008 - 14:30 |
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| Pirog wrote: | | To me Blackbox division seemed like the place where you really challenge your own abilities. Going into a blind match and being forced to play the opponent despite sometimes getting a very hard challenge. To me, and I'm sure many others, beating a highly rated (no matter if it's in CR or by reputation) coach is one of the challenges that makes it fun to keep playing here on Fumbbl. But if the Blackbox division will always give me handicaps in these matches it kind of takes the edge out of the pride of winning. It's also quite an obstacle to develop as a better player if I will only face better coaches at an advantage in team strength. |
If you (any unspecified coach) are always getting handicaps surely that is because you are not winning matches. In which case isn't every match a challenge?
With this setup every match should be a challenge for both coaches. Surely this is more "hardcore" than pure TS where many coaches will be getting easy matches a lot of the time.
I don't now why you expect to learn less from a close game than one that would probably be not so close.
The challenge is to keep winning until you don't get handicaps |
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[SL] + Official Stunty teams. Progression KO. Old & new teams welcome. 29th May!
Last edited by koadah on %b %18, %2008 - %15:%Nov; edited 1 time in total |
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spelledaren
Joined: Mar 06, 2004
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Nov 18, 2008 - 15:08 |
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Concerning mirror matches in the math...
Teams of the same race will often have a similar TS, and as their status on the racial chart is 50 %, those games would pop up more often than others. At least that's why I think that there is a need for a mirror match adjustment in the formula. |
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FUMBBL! |
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Pirog
Joined: Jul 13, 2006
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Nov 18, 2008 - 15:12 |
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I didn't mean LRB handicaps when I refered to handicaps, I just meant that if the formula always gives me some kind of advantage when I play better coaches (whether it is TR/TS difference, a match-up with races that are more suitable to the opponents race - like dwarves vs amazons - or similar things) it would feel a bit boring in the end. Since there is no real end goal in Blackbox division since it lacks tournaments etc. it would feel like one of the thrills - to pull off a win against someone that is valued a lot better - would disappear.
To make a rather exaggerated comparison, winning a sprinting contest over Usain Bolt if he could only use one of his legs wouldn't feel very cool or fun, even if I'm sure it would be challenging to him.
So far I haven't found the match-ups that bad. I just played a very high CR coach who had dwarves and who beat me extremly easily. So it's just a theoretic discussion. It might very well allready be small enough margins to not really have a big effect on the match-ups. |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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Nov 18, 2008 - 15:17 |
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since everybody ignored it so far, i would like to come back to my first post myself (last one on page one).
the question i ask there is: are you sure that the current scheduling as christer decribes it really tends to give TS-advantadge to weaker coaches? actually i do not think that is true, but i am not sure... (please see first post for details) |
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Forrest_Gump
Joined: Sep 25, 2003
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Nov 18, 2008 - 15:21 |
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