pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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 Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 13:25 |
 
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| PurpleChest wrote: | | And surely your endless attempts to stifle debate must be wearing you down as it seems the debate will continue regardless. |
shadow can lock threads. If he really wanted to 'stifle debate', he could do so quite thoroughly.
I am getting a little tired of the implications being made in these discussions that those who argue that we don't have enough data yet, those who are taking a relatively moderate position, or those who just don't agree with whatever proposal is being made, are trying to shut down the debate.
If they were really trying to shut down the debate, they would not be making long and detailed posts: doing that is debate. If they were shutting down the debate, you would know about it!
In fact, I personally think that shutting down the debate (temporarily) would actually be of great benefit at the moment! Were I in shadow's (or Christer's) position, I would be considering something like a two-week 'cool-off' period, during which people would be welcome to peruse the data and prepare their arguments about changes, but not to keep posting it all. However, since nothing like that is in the offing, no one has any call to go around shouting about debate being stifled. |
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Optihut
Joined: Dec 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 13:36 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: | | In R i play a variety of races (DE, HE, Orc, Chaos, CD, Dorf, Human), though specialising in high str teams often. in [B] i feel i would be insane to play as anything other than av9, based on my experiences there and the experiences related by others. |
Perhaps I misunderstand, but now the point of contention seems to be that people are "forced" to play bashers and thus the suggested fix is to force people to play stuff other than bashers...
I'm sure it is well in my rights to laugh at the absurdity of that and continue playing my - albeit a tad bashy - darkelves in the blackbox. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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| pac wrote: | | PurpleChest wrote: | | And surely your endless attempts to stifle debate must be wearing you down as it seems the debate will continue regardless. |
shadow can lock threads. If he really wanted to 'stifle debate', he could do so quite thoroughly.
I am getting a little tired of the implications being made in these discussions that those who argue that we don't have enough data yet, those who are taking a relatively moderate position, or those who just don't agree with whatever proposal is being made, are trying to shut down the debate.
If they were really trying to shut down the debate, they would not be making long and detailed posts: doing that is debate. If they were shutting down the debate, you would know about it!
In fact, I personally think that shutting down the debate (temporarily) would actually be of great benefit at the moment! Were I in shadow's (or Christer's) position, I would be considering something like a two-week 'cool-off' period, during which people would be welcome to peruse the data and prepare their arguments about changes, but not to keep posting it all. However, since nothing like that is in the offing, no one has any call to go around shouting about debate being stifled. |
I dont dissagree, and maybe debate should be ended until Christer decides to move [B] into Beta phase and the missed opportunity many percieve is long gone. Also shadow46x2 has written some very interesting things in his long posts.
But he ended one saying explicitly that someone playing a str based race has no right to criticise the BlackBox racial mix. He has stated that, or similar views, several times. I dissagree strongly that anyones viewpoint isnt valid, even if they are only percieving [B] from the outside. As long as we understand the context of those viewpoints, and in an enviroment where viewpoints are not being disscouraged (even if they maybe should be) then why/how can one person decide to be the arbiter of who has the right to an opinion? |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 14:01 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: | | But he ended one saying explicitly that someone playing a str based race has no right to criticise the BlackBox racial mix. He has stated that, or similar views, several times. I dissagree strongly that anyones viewpoint isnt valid, even if they are only percieving [B] from the outside. As long as we understand the context of those viewpoints, and in an enviroment where viewpoints are not being disscouraged (even if they maybe should be) then why/how can one person decide to be the arbiter of who has the right to an opinion? |
You make a good point here. Although I wouldn't equate shadow's remarks to a stifling of the debate, I agree that (in the passage you refer to) they are for the most part an irrelevant attack which doesn't address the issue raised.
That said, if someone thinks that elves of any given kind (or some other roster) are unviable in [B], the best thing they can do is start a team of them there and give it their best shot. If large numbers of proven coaches try (and fail) to run elves in [B], I am sure this will prompt a change to the system. However, all of my experience from other environments suggests to me that such a change will not be necessary.
In other words, people need to think of themselves as testers. Ameranth (yes!) should be the model. If you think you see a flaw, go and exploit it and prove that it's a flaw! |
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Forrest_Gump
Joined: Sep 25, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 14:28 |
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Hmm. After ~30 games with elves i've come out with an ok record. Alot of games vs +10-20ts bashy teams(and i'm not complaining about the races - i enjoy playing a mix) but whilst it may be possible to beat a khemri/chaos/dwarf team with +20ts it is extrememly hard to come out of these matches unscathed, so team building is impossible. After 30 games i'm 150tr, in [R] you could easily be 250tr by now if you wanted.
I don't really understand why bbr is taken into account and definately don't want to be seperated, or have less chance, of playing bashier teams, but if drawn against +10-20ts bashers every game - especially when under 10 players - all that I have to play for is scraping lucky wins whilst my team is destroyed each game with no hope of recovery. Perhaps bbr could be used so teams with under 11 players could avoid the big bashers...hmm...maybe.... i still don't really like play style/bashiness coming into the formula at all...
As for the intent of the blackbox - I thought it was going tobe a competitve division and had invisioned cool major tournies in which no one could have cheesily pick thier way to 300tr and a much more even playing field where coaching skill (and team management) would really be tested. However if coaching skill is factored in to the formula to give good coahes tougher matches then it is something *completely* different.
Perhaps, if this is even possible/pheasable, there could be 2 options: BBhigh for the dedicated "top coaches" wanting a competitive division and BBlow where coaches less confident of there abilities could play. Then match the teams up fairly irregardless of CR/BR. This would work fine for BBhigh although some tweaking of BBlow to include some element of BR factor to avoid people picking on newbies.
But all in all, for an alpha stage, i think all is going pretty well and running amazingly smoothly. so kudos to Christer  I think it might be time to wait for the beta and see which direction he chooses to take it to see if it will be something for me or not. |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 14:50 |
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| pac wrote: | That said, if someone thinks that elves of any given kind (or some other roster) are unviable in [B], the best thing they can do is start a team of them there and give it their best shot. If large numbers of proven coaches try (and fail) to run elves in [B], I am sure this will prompt a change to the system. However, all of my experience from other environments suggests to me that such a change will not be necessary.
In other words, people need to think of themselves as testers. Ameranth (yes!) should be the model. If you think you see a flaw, go and exploit it and prove that it's a flaw! |
I am about to do a test with a Rat team.
Yesterday I played an all Halfling team and a no mummy Khemri team, which brought my W/D/L position to 23/10/23, so my BR should be roughly neutral. During those game, both teams took a beating, so my BBR should be slightly negative.
What I am expecting with my new Rat team, is to be matched against various other low BBR teams, which will give me a basher played % slightly lower than the 43% of the division.
I think one of the issues here will be coach sytle plays a great part on which path the coach follows, with all teams.
For instance, if I run only Rats and Elves, the subject to my test results, I would expect to meet less bashy teams. However, if I run all teams, including Claw/RSC Chaos and Vampires, then the coach data would be somewhat skewed. My Claw/RSC Chaos could meet less bashy sides, due to the results of my Vampires, whilst my Vampires could meet killer teams based on the results of my Chaos.
It will be interesting to run through some games and find out where the system takes me, but I think whilst the system is run via coach statistics rather than team statistic, you may well get 'Elfbowling' coaches by default, who avoid all extra blocks, and refuse to make bashy teams, in order to keep their BBR as far away from the Chaos, Khemri and Dwarves as possible. |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 14:56 |
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| Synn wrote: | "poostabbiness" (elves, flings, vamps, zons).
__Synn |
I don't know what "poostabbiness" means, but elves rock! mv6 av7 linemen are manly! 
Oh and bla bla bla BR bla bla.  |
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Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 15:00 |
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Don't like [B], don't do [B].
No number stats or rationales or crying over how broken it is or will be is going to stop me and others enjoying [B]. Likewise, no matter how much I crack on about how great it is will make some coaches like it at all. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 15:11 |
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| pac wrote: | | If you think you see a flaw, go and exploit it and prove that it's a flaw! |
A flaw is only exploitable, if it gives you an unfair advantage. A flaw that causes an option to be less viable cannot be proven via exploit.
What would you say if I start an elven team play 20 games and then compare the team with an [R] team after 20 games? Right.. that this proves nothing, even if my [R] teams are all roughly around TR200 after 20 games and my [B] teams are not. |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 15:19 |
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| Calcium wrote: | Don't like [B], don't do [B].
No number stats or rationales or crying over how broken it is or will be is going to stop me and others enjoying [B]. Likewise, no matter how much I crack on about how great it is will make some coaches like it at all. |
However, since it's a division in Alpha going through a testing phase, then all input into the flaws and design into the division are valid.
If you only wish to play in the division, then why post in a thread made by someone wanting a level of clarification on testing? |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 15:22 |
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| pac wrote: | | In fact, I personally think that shutting down the debate (temporarily) would actually be of great benefit at the moment! Were I in shadow's (or Christer's) position, I would be considering something like a two-week 'cool-off' period, during which people would be welcome to peruse the data and prepare their arguments about changes, but not to keep posting it all. However, since nothing like that is in the offing, no one has any call to go around shouting about debate being stifled. |
I like this option. Seriously, these BR/No BR "debates" have just been the same lines repeated over and over and over again for days now.
Can we have a stalling thread instead please? Just for variety. |
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medaloffairness
Joined: Nov 28, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 15:44 |
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I like the [B] division more than ranked. Of course it is possible to face a bashy team which I would try to avoid when I would play in ranked. But the big difference (for me) which makes [B] so interesting for me is,
... that even bashy teams have the risk of facing a bashy one
... the thrill of not knowing who your opponent will be (saves time and is challanging, as well)
... the development of the team is different know, you can not specialise your team in playing against a certain race.
Of course there are ways still ways to cherry pick and some choaches want to avoid that the BR rank is taken into account in order to get a disadvantage (surprisingly the BR rank is hated by coaches with high CR and some famous cherrypickers who are well known in [R], ... surprise, surprise)
And now something most of you don`t want to hear: The problem of facing a bashy team with a fragile one has been discussed beside fumbbl as well. The risk of losing to much players and not being able to replace the losses puts the team in the darkness of a basket. Yeah, and they have found a solution for it... And they call it Journeyman. This slight change to the rules of BB made it possible to fill the LOS with Journeymen when you are low on players, which protect your skilled players... With this system I am not afraid of any team I am playing against, because a skaven lino is always better then a MB,Guard,Block BOB if you use him correctly.
Ah, and you want to know, which ruleset it is, which could end a bit of the discussion here and solved (at least a bit) the problem between bashy and fragile teams on the long run?
The answer is LRB 5
See you in Black |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 15:45 |
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| medaloffairness wrote: |
Of course there are ways still ways to cherry pick and some choaches want to avoid that the BR rank is taken into account in order to get a disadvantage (surprisingly the BR rank is hated by coaches with high CR and some famous cherrypickers who are well known in [R], ... surprise, surprise) |
BR implementation is hated by low CR coaches, too.
[medaloffairness-mode on]
On the other hand I could claim that only low CR coaches object the removal of BR from the formula and those just want to have their victory against a stronger coach handed to them on a silver plate if they just suck badly enough for a long enough time.
[medaloffairness-mode off[
@pac/DukeTyrion:
I could live with a break and I don`t care how many days/weeks just as long there won`t be the arguement 'If you had only said this earlier.. now we are too far in the implemention to change basic stuff like that'. |
Last edited by CircularLogic on %b %20, %2008 - %15:%Nov; edited 1 time in total |
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Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 15:49 |
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| DukeTyrion wrote: | However, since it's a division in Alpha going through a testing phase, then all input into the flaws and design into the division are valid.
If you only wish to play in the division, then why post in a thread made by someone wanting a level of clarification on testing? |
Probably the wrong place to post my comment, but a lot of what I've read in this and other threads hasn't been constructive. It's been an attack against the basis of what [B] is trying to achieve. |
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Skulll
Joined: Dec 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 15:52 |
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agreed that bashiness should have nothing to do with match making. On AG teams it's the challenge to survive (or at least used to be back when every bashy aspect wasn't nerfed. Now-a-days i consider it nonsense that teams don't survive through bashers with av7, You have to be unlucky to get really hurt with lrb4 and after. That's how i see it), on bashers it's a challenge to win when those two meet. |
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