pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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 Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 22:43 |
 
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I'm not worried in the slightest.  |
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Haunted
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 22:45 |
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WOW, this thread got hijacked like crazy!
Look my point wasn't to start an argument about arguing. This whole business about lack of data and what races are being represented-- it's all counter to the original post.
My point was we need to know where we're going before we go there. Right now everyone is in the dark. Just look at the discussion we've had to this point. Tons of people commenting on random things, all from a different point of view.
I like Silly's idea that we should have a thread to brainstorm possible things the blackbox can be. Stop arguing if B is doing its job or not! WE DON'T KNOW WHAT ITS JOB IS YET
Silly, I'll be waiting for that thread. It had BETTER be protected from all this bs spam. |
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Flix
Joined: Oct 26, 2003
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Nov 20, 2008 - 23:08 |
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i just read the idea of BlackBox and i think the idea is great.
that players are joining with strong bash teams is like moste smack teams are bashy too. But i like to play ag teams in smack and i think i would love to play ag teams in B. i read skaven are very unpopular in B so far. I am sure my first team will be a skaven team.
looking forward my first B game |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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Nov 20, 2008 - 23:13 |
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@ pac: i would not stop the debate. obviously, its christers (and maybe other who run the site with him) business if he wants to read through all pages - its fair enough to say: ok i ll ignore B thread from number 10 onwards  . anyway if people want discuss, fair enough.
@ sillysod: not so silly, that idea.
@ shadow: you often accuse people very easily. your accusation of hypocrisy is just hilarious.
@hunter: coming back to your question:
In my ideal fumbbl world I want from BlackBox:
- Quick games without the gamefinder market of ranked (obviously)
- BlackBox majors where i dont play vs elfballers and cherrypickers (would be sooo great)
- Matching depending on TR/TS (and racial factor), no BR involved
- A mechanism to give basher and softies the same long term team development chances: in my opinion that would mean increasing the probability of bashy/high av teams to play each other - but that would NOT involve giving agility teams a TS advantage when they meet the occasional basher
obviously, i also want pie and free beer
if someone argues the mechanism i would like cant be implemented, that might be right - i m a computer/programming noob |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 20, 2008 - 23:15 |
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| Flix wrote: | i just read the idea of BlackBox and i think the idea is great.
that players are joining with strong bash teams is like moste smack teams are bashy too. But i like to play ag teams in smack and i think i would love to play ag teams in B. i read skaven are very unpopular in B so far. I am sure my first team will be a skaven team.
looking forward my first B game |
Rats are cool!
Join the B rat rebellion! |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Nov 21, 2008 - 02:08 |
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| pac wrote: | | SillySod wrote: | | Shadow does shut down debate, whether he means to or not... and often it looks like he means to. What annoys me is when people say "we cant possibly discuss this, we dont have enough data" rather than "we dont know if this is necessary yet, feel free to discuss options but you may well be wasting your time". You arent doing this but shadow sometimes is. |
That's simply because shadow has a blunter posting style than me. I would have thought you knew he was really a soft fluffy kitten by now.  |
There is a difference between being rude and being unreasonable. His unreasonableness is what I was pointing at. He isnt the only one either, both sides are doing their part.
Either way, these debates are going no where wo I intend to take them in a new and hopefully more sensible direction (I think that this was what Jan was aiming for with his petition). |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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OldBugman
Joined: May 05, 2005
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Nov 21, 2008 - 02:27 |
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Let all make orcs and be done with it. |
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Tigurius
Joined: Mar 02, 2008
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Nov 21, 2008 - 03:06 |
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I think the number of bash teams will decline slightly after the novelty wears off. The first teams I made in [B] were Ogre and Khemri. I made them because I wanted to take them for a test drive and never found a willing opponent in [R]. It only took me a few games before I decided to retire my Khemri team. I just didn't enjoy the Khemri play style.
I replaced the slow gits with a Skaven team.
I think others getting their first exposure to extreme basher teams may make a similar choice. |
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MSpanke
Joined: Jun 06, 2006
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Nov 21, 2008 - 03:50 |
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Bashy would decline if the dodgy teams could survive. Shadow46*2 has one of the rare successful dodgy teams. I try to start one and I consistantly have to play up, up to over +20ts. I'd have to lose a lot to get the matchups down in ts then develope a team. Is that what BBox is about? |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2008 - 04:09 |
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| OldBugman wrote: | | Let all make orcs and be done with it. |
Probably the best advice yet. |
_________________
Hail to Manowar! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Ghor Oggaz |
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Snorri
Joined: Jun 07, 2004
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Nov 21, 2008 - 05:41 |
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Going back to the original point of this thread.
I think the reason that quite a few people are unhappy with blackbox in particular is that it doesn't give them the freedom to choose the type/race of team they want and actually enjoy playing with them (and if you can't survive with them, then it isn't fun - which becomes a real issue if you're just joe bloe trying to have fun with a skaven team). Those that are happy with blackbox seem to be the lucky majority whose favoured races are compatible with blackbox as it stands.
When it comes down to it, thats all that matters to providing a fun environment, a place where you can play with your own choice of team and have fun in your spare time. The other options in the original post dont really contribute to that and unfortunately blackbox doesn't either.
Its also a lesson we learned in the swl. If we gave that freedom of choice with the guarantee that they can survive and have some interesting games, that was far more important and created alot more contentment than doing any race levelling. We'll never make the races level because of their variety and the complexity and some races are much harder than others. That means some races will struggle to be the top dog, but that doesn't matter. So long as the coach can have an enjoyable, challenging time at some rung in the tournament knowing that a few unlucky rolls of the dice or a bad draw wont wipeout the team they've invested in, they're happy.
I dont know if fumbbl will ever recognise that there's a fairly significant group who'd appreciate something like this without drowning out their voices in the din of the majority. It doesn't have to be [B]. But I'm sure if it did happen, it wouldn't be another neglected, unpopular division. Alas though, may be the only place you'll ever find it is in [U]. |
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MSpanke
Joined: Jun 06, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2008 - 06:39 |
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Sarganius
Joined: Jun 15, 2008
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Nov 21, 2008 - 07:25 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: |
Do you really expect otherwise off coaches that percieve there to be a problem of racial imbalance that makes av9 the default choice? Sure the problem is that despite your messianic fervour you have been unable to presuade people that anything other than an av9, or bashy, teams, is the right choice for them in [B].
In R i play a variety of races (DE, HE, Orc, Chaos, CD, Dorf, Human), though specialising in high str teams often. in [B] i feel i would be insane to play as anything other than av9, based on my experiences there and the experiences related by others.
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LAME! ( But i say that to myself more than you).
Ok i was a coach who felt that [B] would degenerate into a bash fest with bashy teams destroying all others and i still don't have the experience nor the knowledge of whether this is happening however what Purplechest said about AV9 and stronger teams made me totally reconsider my argument!
Its not the games mechanics that are flawed but the tactics you are using because yes its just a game but you need to take some sort of reality when playing the match because the rule-makers obviously have and i'll explain...
If you are a hulking muscle-bound brute covered in armour and strong enough to lift a car (Orcs, chaos, ogres, etc) then you deserve AV9 and STR4/5...
If you are a lithe, fast and lightly armoured fella (Elf, rat,etc) then you deserve AV7 and STR 2/3...
HOWEVER...
If you are a little elven BB player like the above example then you really are not going to actively go seeking a huge powerful ogre to fight it out against but rather you would use your speed and skills to better effect to avoid these monsters and score aren't you?
There are SO MANY rules and skills that assist dodgy teams play and win against bashy teams but i constantly see (and have experienced in my games in [B]) players trying to outbash with elves but then take injuries as a result. My opponents have been lucky in [B] as most of the injury rolls have come up KO's and BH's but it could have been a bloodbath and i honestly feel its due to bad tactics not bad game mechanisms.
One absolutely HUGE rule that protects dodgy teams in the Blitz move. If you ensure your weak AV7 players are not in a tackle zone then they can only take 1 single block but all i see is elves and skaven putting bashy opponents in tackle zones then wondering why the get injured!
Anyway enough of the tactical talk as i am not the messiah! Wish i was though it would so pull the chicks! |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Nov 21, 2008 - 08:27 |
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| Chewie wrote: | | Don't worry Pac. I'll still play Elves. I think i know of one other coach who will too. |
.o/
Tbh, if I do well long term and I'm playing up 10-20TS, I'd be mental not to.
Dorfs aren't going to do that job.
Do we have a win % for teams over 25 games statistics yet by the way? I'm assuming Woodies are dominant? These race stats are all well and good, but there can be a million Chaos teams, like in [R], but it means not a lot if all but 5 suck... |
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skeletor
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2008 - 09:08 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | | i guess you're talking about your skaven team that has faced 80% Khemri/orc/ogre/chaos/dwarf... |
Nope Shadow, im not talking about my skaven, they have played a nice varaty of races and therfore they are doing great. Whitout knowing eksakt how the formula works, there must be somthing who make sure that soft teams get less bash, i guess that will be the BBC. Its just a guess, but it can´t be pure luck that my DE got there first 3 games against HE and my skaven have yet too play dwarf and Khemri.
| shadow46x2 wrote: | you could base your comments on fact instead of speculation that is intended to spread FUD...
as of 11/20/08 - 7:58 AM bbtime...
there are 812 active teams in [B] with at least 1 game played...sorted by the total amount of teams per race....
orc 94
dwarf 78
chaos 72
khemri 72
dark elf 50
skaven 45
human 41
ogre 41
wood elf 37
lizardmen 35
undead 35
chaos dwarf 33
high elf 31
norse 25
necromantic 24
nurgle's rotters 21
amazon 20
goblin 17
elf 14
vampire 14
halfling 13
and wow....those 5 races total up 357 of 812 teams....43% of the total teams in the league...
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Well shadow, i write "I guess" thats not the same as "its like that".
I don´t know where too find stats like that, and too be honnest i´ll rather pick my nose then finding out. I write "i guess" because it´s just basede on what i see on the game page.
Now you have showed me the stats, but my point still stand, i will not consiter that a healty envirement for av7 teams, if there is nothing that make em get just a littel less bash games.
| shadow46x2 wrote: | if you feel that there are too many "bash" teams in B....
why are you complaining?
why don't you take the first step in encouraging others to play something other than those teams... |
I have hat 3 B teams skaven/orc/DE my DE got killed and i hat too retire em : (
Thats 2 soft and 1 bash, if we all hat 2 soft and 1 bash then there would be no problem at all, ewen if it´s like my team is now 1 soft 1 bash it wout still not be a problem.
Where in my post do you see that im complaning about too many bash teams? My point in the post is that we shoud not remove the tweak that ensure that av7 teams can surive. So it really dident matter if i hat 10 orc teams in B, it´s not about the races, but about the tweak.
| shadow46x2 wrote: | | but then again, when you pick 5 of the most popular "bash" races, is it really so hard to expect a lot of matches played between them?.. |
Please read Synn´s and my post then you will find out that bash vs bash games have nothing too do whit my post |
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