SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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 Posted:
Nov 26, 2008 - 17:28 |
 
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If you think that a human team with block on the ogre and an (otherwise identical) human team with block on a lineman instead are equivalent in power then you are wierd  If you think otherwise then you are actually agreeing with us.. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Nov 26, 2008 - 18:17 |
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| Ilovpompom wrote: | Weird speech for someone who told me that ogre team is just an extremely bad roster every time I played him.
Getting 1 double doesn't mean having G access and getting block doesn't mean they don't have to roll for bonehead.
Is a bloc/claw/rsc goat more balanced than a block/tackle/guard ogre? I don't think so...
I feel more like you were not used to get beaten by ogres and now that you can't dodge them before getting 8mb/3dp, rsc/claw or a full blodge elf team that's getting you a little bit upset...
Ogres do now get a wide range of opponent and not only overly strong bashers to play with, and therefore are better in the box than in ranked, but that's quite normal as they were winning really few in ranked.
It's even better with the BBR cause that allow ogres to avoid full blodge teams... |
Yes.. the ogre roster is an extremely bad designed roster. I stand by that. Probably have told you that every time I played you, because that was every time against your [B] ogre - one time in total. Given that I also don`t see how my speech is wierd.
I usually tend to avoid ogres with any team, no matter of my chances of winning, because I tend to enjoy games more, where I can rely on my own skill instead of having to rely on my opponents dice screwing up eventually. So I stay away from a team that is designed to have rediculously strong players that are brought down by being randomly unreliable - I don`t play them either, because I feel that there is nothing to coach. Either you roll well, then you don`t have to worry a thing or you don`t and then you can`t do shit. Plus if you play them with less dodgy and less armored races (skaven/norse) it`s a pain because you get really hurt even if you usually win.
In total, this has nothing to do about being beaten by ogres (can`t remember when that happened last) but with my dislike for a poorly designed team.
But that`s on a sidenote..
Silly has the main point - block on bigguys is SO much better than block on normal RR-using folks, that it warrants a bonus in my opinion. |
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Ilovpompom
Joined: Nov 25, 2007
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Nov 26, 2008 - 21:09 |
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Sillysod, you think block on the ogre is better because it's harder to get, you have more linos and blitzers with already block.
But a lino is usually doing/receiving at least the same amount of blocks than an ogre which is always used at the end and do bonehead sometimes, and is not so often blocked due to his st5. So yes, I think it's quite similar.
Maybe it wasn't you circular, but I've played quite a lot ogres in ranked too, and I thought I already heard that. For me it looks like nerfing ogre roster, which you says isn't good already.
And no ogres are not only about dices... Even if sometimes you get screwed and loose a td in defense, you can still use ttm to recover, and in offense you just need to have 2 or 3 ogres in backup for the cage or an ogre ballcarrier who can stand a block. And with some dp gobbo and enough ogres, you have some chances to clear the pitch and score twice in second half. My point is that you can still win or tie with bad dices, just as any other team rolling too many skulls.
If ogres are about dices, it's just as much as av7 team which can get down to 6 players in first half, khemri which can fail pickup 4 times in a row, zons failing all dodges and vamps failing ofab... Rolling 6 failed bonehead is not even as bad as rolling 3 double skulls. Yeah just ban all those roster and we'll all play orcs...
For the "main point" ogres can use reroll on an ogre team, and I don't think this post is due to ogre player on another roster which really never is a matchmaker...
I don't think frenzy is valued more on a darkelf witch than on a saurus, so I don't think it should be different for block. |
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Zombie69
Joined: Jul 02, 2007
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Nov 26, 2008 - 21:56 |
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Ogres are more about dice because ogres throw more dice. It's pretty simple really.
Are for not being willing to play against them (or any other race for that matter), that's both silly and cowardly. There! |
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frogboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 26, 2008 - 22:42 |
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| Quote: |
I could go on...however, essentially, what I found in my investigation is the following fact:
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blimey its the bottom inspectors |
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frogboy
Joined: Nov 23, 2007
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Nov 26, 2008 - 22:47 |
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anyway, what differance dose it make if were all playing the same game, we all got the same benifits etc, anyway big guys all get ST5 and they smell so thats got to be worth something.... |
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ahalfling
Joined: Aug 16, 2008
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Nov 27, 2008 - 00:53 |
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It would make sense if the TS system just gave a straight premium to skills that a player could only get on doubles, as TV does... |
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Mattybee
Joined: Mar 22, 2007
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Nov 27, 2008 - 01:23 |
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| Ilovpompom wrote: | | Sillysod, you think block on the ogre is better because it's harder to get, you have more linos and blitzers with already block. |
No.
| Ilovpompom wrote: | | But a lino is usually doing/receiving at least the same amount of blocks than an ogre which is always used at the end and do bonehead sometimes, and is not so often blocked due to his st5. So yes, I think it's quite similar. |
I would much rather have an ogre with block than a lino with block because ogres have more dice to throw and no RRs.
| Ilovpompom wrote: | | And no ogres are not only about dices... Even if sometimes you get screwed and loose a td in defense, you can still use ttm to recover, and in offense you just need to have 2 or 3 ogres in backup for the cage or an ogre ballcarrier who can stand a block. |
Which all rely on dice (TTM requires plenty of decent dice, even having backups requires you to not bonehead).
| Ilovpompom wrote: | | And with some dp gobbo and enough ogres, you have some chances to clear the pitch and score twice in second half. My point is that you can still win or tie with bad dices, just as any other team rolling too many skulls. |
No. When other teams have bad dice, they can still at least rearrange their players and get in the way. When ogres have bad dice, they do NOTHING.
| Ilovpompom wrote: | If ogres are about dices, it's just as much as av7 team which can get down to 6 players in first half, khemri which can fail pickup 4 times in a row, zons failing all dodges and vamps failing ofab... Rolling 6 failed bonehead is not even as bad as rolling 3 double skulls. Yeah just ban all those roster and we'll all play orcs...
For the "main point" ogres can use reroll on an ogre team, and I don't think this post is due to ogre player on another roster which really never is a matchmaker... |
This is a dumb analogy. The only one that is remotely similar is vampires, who are also extremely dice-reliant. The difference is that vamps get RRs a heck of a lot easier than ogres do.
| Ilovpompom wrote: | | I don't think frenzy is valued more on a darkelf witch than on a saurus, so I don't think it should be different for block. |
I'd rather have frenzy on a saurus than a witch elf. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 02:23 |
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| Ilovpompom wrote: | | Sillysod, you think block on the ogre is better because it's harder to get, you have more linos and blitzers with already block. |
Its nothing to do with that. Linemen and ogres are fundamentally different players with totally different roles. A similar example would be choosing between having block on either a vampire or a thrall... I'd far rather have it on the vampire.
| Quote: | | I don't think frenzy is valued more on a darkelf witch than on a saurus, so I don't think it should be different for block. |
Ideally they wouldnt be valued equally, hower it is pretty tough to determine how much more useful frenzy is on one than the other. This is a case where its brutally obvious that a skill is significantly more useful on one player than another.
PS I totally disagree with CircularLogic about ogre teams. However this is not about ogre teams. |
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funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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Nov 27, 2008 - 02:55 |
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Block is more useful on big guys since they don't get to reroll. Even though Ogres aren't big guys, they will tend to not have many rerolls for a long time and can waste them before a block on bone head.
| Ilovpompom wrote: | Block is just as useful on ogres than on anyone else. So if you want to raise it, raise it on all players.
No reason to raise the cost for ogres if you don't do it for everyone. Yes block is a the best skill, no this isn't different for big guys. |
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arw
Joined: Jan 07, 2007
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Nov 27, 2008 - 04:03 |
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| Ilovpompom wrote: | | If the lino isn't the dp of the team or some other utility skill like kick, you'll take block on the lino first skill... so I don't see the difference. |
It's all the difference. I always had the impression that TS fails us at this point, too (haven't studied the details though). As Circ pointed out that Block is better for Big Guys since you can't use ReRolls. On top of it Block leads to more blocks made by the player- same for lino and ogre. The ogre however blocks with ST5 and MB. Same as RSC obviously being better for a player who has Claw.
Another point is the skill frequency:
If you get the first block player with Chaos (or Ogre) you'll use him to blitz often. Hence a lot of blitzes will be done with block. If your Human Lino gets block you might use him to blitz- but your blitzers had Block anyway. Your teams overall blitz ability hasn't changed much.
Most skills actually can't be used with all players simultaneously to full potential- hence a single player having the skill alone is "stronger" than a player having the skill in a team where all players have it. Most drastic for kick/DP/Pass/Throw Teammate and all skills that can't be used more then once per turn. If your DP isn't caught all game then all the other 5 DPs are useless.
PS@Diablo down there:
IF he gets fouled out the other one becomes more useful. If not then he won't. The first is always "extra valuable". The 2nd "maybe" if the first is not at hand and so on.
TS doesn't care about that- wouldn't even take the uselessness of multiple "kick"s into account i guess.
That's what really makes doubles (+stats) so strong- it gives you the skills to do what you couldn't do otherwise. Not just to do what that player couldn't- but what your whole team couldn't!
My AG3 Blitz-Ra actually made ALL the TDs.
That may become a problem (since he can die or be a lone hero in a rookie team) - but it shows that nearly all of my teams ball related actions were done with AG3. Although I just had one AG3 guy.
TS will see no difference between his +AG and a BoBs  |
Last edited by arw on %b %07, %2008 - %21:%Dec; edited 3 times in total |
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Diabl0658
Joined: Oct 05, 2004
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Nov 27, 2008 - 05:56 |
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Not entirely true. More players with that skill means better field coverage as well as more survivability. If your one block ogre gets fouled off the pitch his block isnt doing you much good is it? Suddenly the other players with block become more useful. |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 07:43 |
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| Grod wrote: | | Or we should just switch to LRB 5.0 and use the new team rating formula. |
when you're ready to write a brand new client for the site to use, and have it cover every requirement christer has to be implemented, we'll make the jump...
in the mean time, how about we work on brainstorming ideas on fixing what we have, instead of trolling, hmm?
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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PhrollikK
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 09:38 |
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Ofcourse block is good on an Ogre, hence you need doubles to get it. This comes down to 1/6 skill rolls, if you forego +ST and +MA. .. 6 other skills (Guard, Break Tackle) per block. whoopiedoo. On top of this the Ogre team is defunct on tackle, DP, Sure Hands etc etc etc. All needing doubles to get.
Should their block cost more than anyone elses? NO. It's a great skillchoice, as is Very Long Legs on a GR. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 09:53 |
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| PhrollikK wrote: | | Should their block cost more than anyone elses? NO. It's a great skillchoice, as is Very Long Legs on a GR. |
Which is why Very Long Legs gets a quite hefty bonus TS for bringing that gutter closer to being a oneturner. Which in turn doesn`t make it THAT good of a skillchoice anymore.
Just like RSC gets an additional bonus if there is an AV-roll modifier.. and like break tackle gives you a bonus the higher your ST and the lower you AG is. +ST on a zombie will give less TS increase than on a wight.
There are already skills, that are weighted differently on different players. Why not add a fix to such an obvious thing? |
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