PhrollikK
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
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 Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 09:56 |
 
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As stated above, it's already so hard to get, and to get it 1/6 skill rolls you are forsaking all other G/A/P-skills and +MA/ST. It's already costly.
The only way I could see it cost more in TS for Ogres is if they got G-access. But that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 10:26 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | | Grod wrote: | | Or we should just switch to LRB 5.0 and use the new team rating formula. |
when you're ready to write a brand new client for the site to use, and have it cover every requirement christer has to be implemented, we'll make the jump...
in the mean time, how about we work on brainstorming ideas on fixing what we have, instead of trolling, hmm?
--j |
did he say "instead of trolling"? shadow? atomroflmao |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 11:17 |
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| PhrollikK wrote: | | As stated above, it's already so hard to get, and to get it 1/6 skill rolls you are forsaking all other G/A/P-skills and +MA/ST. It's already costly. |
Uhm.. and while we are at it - make +ST give the same increase as diving catch, because +ST is so hard to get - only 1/36 of all skill rolls and you are forsaking all other skills!
There is a difference in the skillrolls in order to judge the strenght of teams as accurate as possible and to account for lucky skill increases as opposed to unlucky. That is why +ST/+AG raises your TS by quite abit. How likely it is to get a skill is completely irrelevant to judging the strenght of a team when you have the skill - because the lucky roll has already happened. |
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PhrollikK
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 11:55 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | | There is a difference in the skillrolls in order to judge the strenght of teams as accurate as possible and to account for lucky skill increases as opposed to unlucky. That is why +ST/+AG raises your TS by quite abit. How likely it is to get a skill is completely irrelevant to judging the strenght of a team when you have the skill - because the lucky roll has already happened. |
Yet a special clause has to be added for Big Guys to pay extra for Block?
To reiterate (Since the Ogre team will be the one most affected): Ogres are a sub-average team and making them pay more TS-wise for doubles (ie. Block skill) is stupid. Their RR's are costly, they have Bone Head across the board (bar gobbos), are expensive and so on and so forth. Making the one skill that makes them playable more expensive will surely kill all interest in the them (and fun).
But I am on the otherhand for a (TS) cost increasement of all high AV players. AV9 is too cheap. Also, why not take Right Stuff into account since it is a way of scoring and in some teams is very valuable... |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 12:17 |
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I thought we were discussing a change that applied specifically to players with the big guy trait who also have block. That means: not ogre teams. However...
| PhrollikK wrote: | | CircularLogic wrote: | | There is a difference in the skillrolls in order to judge the strenght of teams as accurate as possible and to account for lucky skill increases as opposed to unlucky. That is why +ST/+AG raises your TS by quite abit. How likely it is to get a skill is completely irrelevant to judging the strenght of a team when you have the skill - because the lucky roll has already happened. |
To reiterate (Since the Ogre team will be the one most affected): Ogres are a sub-average team and making them pay more TS-wise for doubles (ie. Block skill) is stupid. Their RR's are costly, they have Bone Head across the board (bar gobbos), are expensive and so on and so forth. Making the one skill that makes them playable more expensive will surely kill all interest in the them (and fun). |
The whole point of TS is that it measures a teams power as accurately as possible. An ogre tem which has rolled a ton of doubles and taken a ton of block is very obviously more powerful than an ogre team which has rolled no doubles at all. Therefore it should have a higher TS because TS is supposed to accurately rate the power of any given team. Rather than screwing over ogre players this should help them out because it means they dont have to roll a stack of doubles to make their team more competitive, their team should be accurately rated (and therefore competitive) whether it has rolled the doubles or not. |
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Ilovpompom
Joined: Nov 25, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 12:41 |
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Sure and you raise only ogres team TS. I don't see how that will make them more competitive...
Really isn't fair without doing the same for every skill requiring a double.
And yes this is all about ogres team, because other teams have 1/2 big guys, when ogres have 5 times more, therefore the raise will be 5 times higher... |
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PhrollikK
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 12:47 |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 12:53 |
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| Ilovpompom wrote: | Sure and you raise only ogres team TS. I don't see how that will make them more competitive...
Really isn't fair without doing the same for every skill requiring a double.
And yes this is all about ogres team, because other teams have 1/2 big guys, when ogres have 5 times more, therefore the raise will be 5 times higher... |
Get a grip and stop dwelling on the negative. Ogre teams have no big guys on them. Big guys are players with the big guy racial characteristic not just any old guy who is big. That means that changes to big guys and ogre teams are likely to be totally seperate. Also notice that other people in the thread have suggested that other ogre skills may be overvalued in the same way that block is undervalued. Piling On and Multiple Block for example... they are both pretty terrible skills but ogres are pretty much forced to take them which pushes up the TS in a daft way. If we reduced the cost of those two skills (and removed the effect of the cost stacking multipliers on the other skills) then ogre teams would benefit as well as lose out - its a matter of balancing things. |
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PhrollikK
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 13:00 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | Get a grip and stop dwelling on the negative. Ogre teams have no big guys on them. Big guys are players with the big guy racial characteristic not just any old guy who is big. That means that changes to big guys and ogre teams are likely to be totally seperate. |
| Quote: | | The whole point of TS is that it measures a teams power as accurately as possible. |
How is it that it's valid in one case and not the other? Wouldn't the change reflect the Players actual cost? Not in a team sense. Guess not then.
| SillySod wrote: | | Also notice that other people in the thread have suggested that other ogre skills may be overvalued in the same way that block is undervalued. Piling On and Multiple Block for example... they are both pretty terrible skills but ogres are pretty much forced to take them which pushes up the TS in a daft way. If we reduced the cost of those two skills (and removed the effect of the cost stacking multipliers on the other skills) then ogre teams would benefit as well as lose out - its a matter of balancing things. |
So the net result would be to make no-block teams even cheaper TS-wise and developed block-teams cost the same as now, or close to?! Makes sense 
<--- Has boarded the nega-train |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 15:11 |
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A couple of questions:
Block for a wild animal is imho even better than for an Ogre so it migth add more TS... isn't that leading to an overcomplex formula?
In one example above, Frency on a Saurus is more interesting than on a Witch (again imo), untill the Witch gets Sidestep, untill the Saurus gets Block + Breack Takle, untill the Witch gets Leap, unless the Saurus gets Sidestep or Stand Firm, unless the Witch has ST4... interesting thing about combos.
More examples: Takle for an Ogre in an Ogre team is more usefull than it's for one in a Human team, Stand Firm for a Beast of Nurgle is better than it's for Trolls...
Imo, as things are now the crappy Piling On compensates for the wonderfull Block on most Big Guys, and Block is a bit underated (wich is not a terrible problem in most cases because most teams have G access), and the Racial Factors Table should help with the problems about Ogre/Vamp/Fling/Gobbo teams (and may be with those of Amazon/Orc/... ).
I don't mean that the formula is not flawed, only that case specific changes can mess it.
(I'm conscious that there are many problems with the racial factors tables too, but that's another issue) |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 27, 2008 - 15:28 |
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| PhrollikK wrote: | | SillySod wrote: | | Get a grip and stop dwelling on the negative. Ogre teams have no big guys on them. Big guys are players with the big guy racial characteristic not just any old guy who is big. That means that changes to big guys and ogre teams are likely to be totally seperate. |
| Quote: | | The whole point of TS is that it measures a teams power as accurately as possible. |
How is it that it's valid in one case and not the other? Wouldn't the change reflect the Players actual cost? Not in a team sense. Guess not then. |
Ideally changes would be made for ogre teams too. However the ogres on an ogre team are fundamentally different to ogres on a normal team since they have a different skillset. The most obvious way to make block cost more on big guys would be to make the combination of the skills "big guy" and "block" add maybe one or two TS to the players cost. Such a change would not affect ogre team ogres because they do not have the "big guy" skill. |
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Azure
Joined: Jan 30, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 28, 2008 - 08:34 |
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| nin wrote: | Imo, as things are now the crappy Piling On compensates for the wonderfull Block on most Big Guys, and Block is a bit underated (wich is not a terrible problem in most cases because most teams have G access), and the Racial Factors Table should help with the problems about Ogre/Vamp/Fling/Gobbo teams (and may be with those of Amazon/Orc/... ).
I don't mean that the formula is not flawed, only that case specific changes can mess it.
(I'm conscious that there are many problems with the racial factors tables too, but that's another issue) |
I think that many people are missing the point of why I posted this in the first place. The point is that that TS is calculated incorrectly for Ogre teams and Big Guys in general.
Goal of TS: to accurately reflect the strength of a team/player.
--This is not the case as shown in initial post.
Goal of picking skills: that people pick skills that they like the best/help them win.
--Currently skills are picked/players retired based on poor TS formula.
Desire: re-examine the TS formula. It is obviously needed for ogres and big guys and I believe there are other areas that need improvement as well. This has to be a top down decision though I believe. |
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arw
Joined: Jan 07, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 07, 2008 - 20:17 |
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| nin wrote: | | Block for a wild animal is imho even better than for an Ogre so it might add more TS... isn't that leading to an overcomplex formula? |
True- to really judge a teams strength it needs a complex formula.
Since TS is calculated by the bot- not by us- it's complexity doesn't really matter for calculating TS. Indeed this "complex TS" is difficult to design though- but it's worth the effort IF you want TS fixed (which won't happen in near future) . Doesn't make sense to do it halfheartedly.
The strength of most skills is dependent on the other skills/stats of that player/team. Complex or not- your own examples support that. So do you really want an "easy TS" which is not accurate? |
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Shrap
Joined: Sep 18, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 07, 2008 - 20:39 |
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Soulmask
Joined: May 11, 2007
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| Posted:
Dec 07, 2008 - 21:04 |
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Block is a lot more valuable on someone with the Big guy skill. Exceptionnaly because they also have mb and high str, it makes block on them a lot better than break tackle or guard or multiple block... and so on. Break tackle is good on a str 4+ which doesnt have the Big guy trait. but with Big guy, it makes it a Last option skill... While block decreases the turnovers on 2dbs by 4 times(from 4/36 to 1/36) and makes them a lot harder to take down. They don't scale break tackle with the big guy skill... it should have TS 10-11 maximum, and block like 16-17.
Moreover, I think all the skill should be counted differently on a big guy(with big guy trait). The fact that they are so unreliable makes that TS counting absolute... +str is a lot better than +ag on a big guy, dodge is even considered before tackle by a lot of good coaches because they simply want their big guy to be a wall, and then sidestep, for position. I'm not sure, but I think a guard break tackle multiple block ogre has more TS than a blodge/sidestep ogre right now... That would be ridiculous, Because the blodge/sidestep is TWICE if not MORE important for the team than the guard break tackle multiple block one... |
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