| Poll |
| Would you like to view BR? |
| Yes |
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64% |
[ 66 ] |
| No |
|
20% |
[ 21 ] |
| Don't Know |
|
15% |
[ 16 ] |
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| Total Votes : 103 |
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Ash
Joined: Feb 03, 2004
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 Posted:
Nov 29, 2008 - 13:24 |
 
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well, as I understand Blackbox, it s a highly competitive league without the possibility to choose games.
I m not saying blackbox is that, I m sayint it s what it is to my eyes.
So, even better than seeing BR or BBR, the one thing I want to know is where I am between the top and the bottom coaches  |
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Ash |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 29, 2008 - 13:26 |
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Hmmmm, I really couldn't give a stuff about BBR, be it in the matching formula, seeing it, or where I am in terms of everyone else.
I guess it's no great shakes if we can see that or not?
Or is that just me? |
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WG|Dark_Angel
Joined: Dec 18, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 29, 2008 - 14:04 |
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| PurpleChest wrote: | It is my understanding that this would mean BR couldnt be comparative.
Coach A will have had a tougher fixture list than coach B, but both could end up with the same BR rating and now be facing equal games in the future, but as their path to that rating is unabalanced, then the rating itself surely shows their abitlity to beat the formula, not a comparative measure against each other. |
That's a possibility, but not a necessity. It depends on how BR is awarded or detracted relative to wins - take CR for instance. A good player will lose much more CR for losing than he will gain for winning, so he will have to win on a fairly consistent basis to keep his CR up. It's possible for the Blackbox to reflect skill, if it punishes losses more leniently than the CR formula, since the difficulty of the match was already being considered in the matchup, and need not be considered post-match. This be the case, it is perfectly possible for a good coach to sustain an above average BR. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 29, 2008 - 15:36 |
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I thought that there was a hard cap on TS difference. If that is the case then I would expect better coaches to win more games than weaker coaches.
Whether it is comparative depends on how BR is calculated. How much weight is given to BR/TS differences.
I imagine that Christer would make it comparative or there would be no point using it in the scheduler.
I'd like to see BR but I suppose it would lead to more moaning about the scheduler  |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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UberEvil
Joined: Oct 20, 2003
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| Posted:
Nov 29, 2008 - 15:43 |
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I'd prefer not to se the BR. Just because I start caring a bit too much when ratings are involved. As it is now, I find it much easier to just sit back and relax while my pixels die. |
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Uberskiller
Joined: Dec 14, 2004
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| Posted:
Nov 29, 2008 - 15:52 |
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| UberEvil wrote: | | I'd prefer not to se the BR. Just because I start caring a bit too much when ratings are involved. As it is now, I find it much easier to just sit back and relax while my pixels die. |
qft. |
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nin
Joined: May 27, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 29, 2008 - 16:15 |
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I don't like BR having a great impact in the formula, I've written that several times but...
Even before the tweaks it was posible to make comparations.
Explanation:
Coach A begins with the baseline, but he's above average, hence he gets shofter matches than he's up to, and his BR increases. Latter on his BR is reaching the point where it represents his hability, but he's still learning new tricks and getting better, so it takes a bit more for the rating to get stable. Even then, this coach can try a new race with wich he has little experience, or a bad luck streack can have an impact on his BR, he may take a breack and get rusty... And the average level in the BBox will probably change over time.
Coach B begins with the baseline too, but he's not so acomplised a coach (yet), so he gets tougher games than he can usually cope with and loses BR. Those tough games improve his skills, so soon he starts getting some wins. But he's also far from the top, and may be he can learn all the trycks given time. As he learns and gets better, his BR becomes somehow obsolete, the games seem to be soft and he wins a bit more... until his new BR represents his skill more accurately.
Both of those are dinamic proceses that never truly end... and are almost continous in the long term.
So, when coach D and C meet, and D has greater BR, this dinamics make the result uncertain, no matter what's the formula used by the scheduler. (Some questions arise, like "is some of the coaches underated or overated by the formula, and how much?")
That way the victory would more ofthen than not, go to the coach that is seemigly better than the formula rates him. That's not exactly good, as there may be some ways of cheating the formula. But if you are on top, that's something you could be proud (and if you are on top and still underated, that's even more so) |
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seanh1986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2008 - 12:14 |
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It's a hard system to evaluate individual's performances for since win % is based on difficulty of opponents which is based on BR.
And BR changes based on games played so that makes it harder to compare between two individuals with equal BRs when one has had a more difficult set of games.
In order to accurately measure performance you'd need some sort of hybrid system which takes into account the win/tie/loss percentage as well as the 'difficulty' of the match or something. |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2008 - 12:18 |
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| footballolb16 wrote: | It's a hard system to evaluate individual's performances for since win % is based on difficulty of opponents which is based on BR.
And BR changes based on games played so that makes it harder to compare between two individuals with equal BRs when one has had a more difficult set of games.
In order to accurately measure performance you'd need some sort of hybrid system which takes into account the win/tie/loss percentage as well as the 'difficulty' of the match or something. |
I would presume BR to always return to the level of a player, regardless of the route taken to reach it, the same as CR.
One coach might get small gains, have 1 loss and lose a chunk, another might play tough matches and get a 60% win rate, yet they may both end up on the same BR.
The BR will at least give you an indication of the toughness of the matches they must have faced. If 2 coaches have a BR of 170, but the second has a 60% win rate, then he must have faced some stiff competition. |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2008 - 12:24 |
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moved the poll from this thread to here
--j |
_________________
| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2008 - 12:27 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | moved the poll from this thread to here
--j |
Well, that's one tidy way to look after it, so thanks for adding the poll 
Hadn't really thought about adding a poll to an old existing post, but if it seems the right way to go, then great. |
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Grouchy
Joined: Feb 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2008 - 12:29 |
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Wotfudboy
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2008 - 14:52 |
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I have a few comments to make:
I seem to have an above average record in BBox so far. Up until recently I had 3 main BBox teams; Humans, Necros and Chaos Dwarves. I tend to play teams which are higher in TR & TS than mine.
On one hand I would like to see Blackbox Rating (BR) for each coach so that those of us that are having an uphill battle almost every game feel they are achieving something.
On the otherhand, I am aware that a published BR, like CR in ranked could possibly shift the emphasis to being less fun and more competitive.
One of my other wishes was to have a team success rating - I call it TBR (Team Blackbox Rating)... basically a coach might be rubbish with his Rotters team but good with his skaven team... but he keeps having to play against higher TS teams with his Rotters... and never gets any better with Rotters because he never stands a chance. |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2008 - 18:29 |
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I think publishing BR would help for two reasons:
1) So we can better understand how it works
2) It would introduce a measure of competition and incentive to win games |
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\x/es |
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nexusvalhees
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2008 - 19:40 |
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I simply don't like the Idea of BR I want to play games against even teams and win or lose based on coaching ability If I get a helping hand from a low BR and win well I didn't really win anything the system did. |
_________________
At the end of the day it's not about who won or lost its about who's got the most Blood on their Boot
Remember folks if you don't go out of your way to kill good players AGING IS YOUR FAULT!! |
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