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Fair Matches?
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halivaraith



Joined: Jan 09, 2007
Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 22:29 Reply with quote Back to top
I thought half the point of blackbox(besides finding a game quick) was to make even games? I don't know the formula behind it but something seems very very wrong to me when I get a match up like this.

<BowlBot> - Archpeasant vs halivaraith (Dark Elf 134/146 vs 188/175 Khemri) @686

Going into the game my team had a better winning record, a higher casualty/game ratio, a signifigant TR/TS advantage and my CR is higher as well. I don't understand why we were matched together. Needless to say my team steamrolled through his elves to a 4-0 win, it wasn't fun for me and I doubt it was much fun for my opponent either. Close matches are far more interesting than a blowout in my oppinion and I doubt I'm alone in that. This is my plea to please enforce stricter limits on the matching system, something's not right here.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006
Post   Posted: Dec 12, 2008 - 22:34 Reply with quote Back to top
29ts-15 ts handicap = 14 TS team diff = game falls within hard limit.

CR is irrelevant in B matchups.

Team records are irrelevant in B - it is the coach record that affects BR and BBR.

Having said all that, it does seem like an outlier. Was is a quiet time of day in B?

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CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003
Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2008 - 02:45 Reply with quote Back to top
You lost alot with your ogres bringing your total record close to 50%. That means your BR probably is also somewhere around 150 - just like the record of one without many games as your opponent.

Add in the fact, that elves tend to win alot against khemri on an even TS, leading the scheduler to reduce the effective TS difference (the one weighted by races that is used).

The scheduler still thought it`s a bad match, but still an OK one as it`s within the hard limit of 15 TS final. The major problem is that handicaps just count as hard TS - which they are not. Additional factors that screwed the elves is the fact that khemri lose alot, because causing damage is just as high on the agenda of some teams. That skewed the racial charts for [B], meaning that khemri will get more of an advantage in the scheduler.
Astarael



Joined: Aug 14, 2005
Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2008 - 02:48 Reply with quote Back to top
[00:59] <@BowlBot> - thegr8mirror vs Deatheart (Orc 232/214 vs 181/185 Nurgle's Rotters) @539

29TS - 3 handicaps = 14TS difference Razz

There's always going to be a few radical ones

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CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003
Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2008 - 13:03 Reply with quote Back to top
That all leads to the question:
More games or better exclusion of the loopsided freak games?
snatch



Joined: Sep 21, 2007
Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2008 - 13:11 Reply with quote Back to top
If everyone had 10 teams in the Black box situations like this would occure very rare. (says the man who currently only has 2 teams in the box)
westerner



Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2008 - 23:44 Reply with quote Back to top
CircularLogic wrote:
That all leads to the question:
More games or better exclusion of the loopsided freak games?

More games. I think games like this are very rare.

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maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004
Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 00:58 Reply with quote Back to top
Actually, there are a significant number. I'd say the main reason for unfair matchups at the moment is the handicaps TS offset. I definitely think that the suitability rating should suffer more than it does currently for matchups that give more than one handicap.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006
Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 03:40 Reply with quote Back to top
yes, but they are amusing, and fun when u win against the odds.

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funnyfingers



Joined: Nov 13, 2005
Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 05:04 Reply with quote Back to top
Can we get the records of all the matches played with a difference of greater than 10 TS? Like to see how often the "stronger" team wins. I wonder also what percentage of matches are greater than 10 TS difference (after handicaps).
nThatch



Joined: Jan 13, 2004
Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 06:19 Reply with quote Back to top
pythrr wrote:
yes, but they are amusing, and fun when u win against the odds.


Second that emotion
Synn



Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 08:05 Reply with quote Back to top
Another similarity between B and F.....

__Synn
SillySod



Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 12:16 Reply with quote Back to top
CircularLogic wrote:
You lost alot with your ogres bringing your total record close to 50%. That means your BR probably is also somewhere around 150 - just like the record of one without many games as your opponent.


Quote:
The major problem is that handicaps just count as hard TS - which they are not.


I believe that they are. Certainly I would hate to play a game at the 15TS cap and then suffer a boatload of handicaps. Perhaps the amount of hard TS they are worth needs to be dropped.

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CircularLogic



Joined: Aug 22, 2003
Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 13:07 Reply with quote Back to top
By hard TS I mean that you are able to translate handicaps into TS in a simple fashion, when you can not. This is due to the huge difference in usefulness of the different handicaps and of every single handicap depending of the context. Virus can be absolutely useless or a gamebreaker. Ironman ranges from minor edge (on a rookie khemri team e.g.) to a gamebreaker (on a ST4 block MB werewolf.. trust me.. that made the game :/)

I think the simplest solution would be to place the 15TS hard cap rule before handicaps are factored in.
Ullakkomorko



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2008 - 13:41 Reply with quote Back to top
CircularLogic wrote:
By hard TS I mean that you are able to translate handicaps into TS in a simple fashion, when you can not. This is due to the huge difference in usefulness of the different handicaps and of every single handicap depending of the context. Virus can be absolutely useless or a gamebreaker. Ironman ranges from minor edge (on a rookie khemri team e.g.) to a gamebreaker (on a ST4 block MB werewolf.. trust me.. that made the game :/)

I think the simplest solution would be to place the 15TS hard cap rule before handicaps are factored in.


The same problem occurs with skills. If you take masses of Dodge, then you'll be gnashing your teeth against Dwarves as for the TS those Dodges bring your team, the dwarves have Guard and MB. Although I'll grant that the effect of Handicaps seems to vary a lot more than even the effectiveness of Dodge.

I think the solution CircularLogic suggests seems to be ok, although it can lead to a lot of matches missed matches, especially during slow hours. This would be mitigated by coaches having more than one or two teams.
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