asperon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Nov 20, 2003 - 22:21 |
 
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Been tossing an idea around about a "skaven" stunty team, and i thought i'd run it by you guys to see what you think
0-2 Rat Ogre 6 5 3 8 Big Guy, Frenzy, Mighty Blow G S Ph 130000
Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal
0-6 Nightrunner 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty A Ph 60000
0-16 Giant Rat 6 2 3 7 Stunty, No Hands, Frenzy, RSC Ph 50000
This is just a first draf, please comment. Do we even need another team for stunty? These guys will play a bit like skinks, only with a little less running capacity and a little more bite. Perhaps increase the cost of the runners to 70k, perhaps remove a point of movement from them? ideas? comments? criticism?
/asperon |
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Pardus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 20, 2003 - 23:03 |
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80k and throw in leap... 10k for access to physicals and 10k for the leap (which makes them more unique)
and i'm assuming the giant rats are agility and physical access |
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Clementus
Joined: Oct 01, 2003
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Nov 20, 2003 - 23:28 |
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Hmm, not that i dont want new teams but the team seems fundamentally flawed, a good Big guy, one of the best, 16 "Basic" Rats with Frenzy and RSC!!!! Thats ridiculous. Mixing that killing power with Skink wannabees, but who can also have Physical is far too good. Think about it, compare to skinks, ok no poision dagger, not great, but with 2 FAR better big guys, well sauruses vs Rat ogres, guess who wins. Then adding in 16 RSC frenzy peeps. Big big ouch!
Perhaps taking away RSC, making Night Runners STR 1 would be better, but i am afraid i dont like it at all.
Just my tuppence, not intended to flame. |
_________________
Warlord Clementus (of the Black Hand Tribe)
Monkey of the Moot!
Flings Rule! |
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asperon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 20, 2003 - 23:36 |
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| Clementus wrote: | Hmm, not that i dont want new teams but the team seems fundamentally flawed, a good Big guy, one of the best, 16 "Basic" Rats with Frenzy and RSC!!!! Thats ridiculous. Mixing that killing power with Skink wannabees, but who can also have Physical is far too good. Think about it, compare to skinks, ok no poision dagger, not great, but with 2 FAR better big guys, well sauruses vs Rat ogres, guess who wins. Then adding in 16 RSC frenzy peeps. Big big ouch!
Perhaps taking away RSC, making Night Runners STR 1 would be better, but i am afraid i dont like it at all.
Just my tuppence, not intended to flame. |
I hear you, removing RSC makes the rats more of a liability, and as i said above, perhaps take the runners down a notch in speed and/or up their price. Still, what the team needs the most is even more a twist, to make them play different from the other teams, thats what the rats are there for. Making the runner 0-4 is another option, the problem is that when the runners are taken out, the team cant score =)
Pardus, i left the A access and the dodge of the rats to make them less manuverable, perhaps thats not a good idea, i dont know, playtesting will have to tell. |
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cataphract
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 21, 2003 - 00:03 |
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does anyone else see the problem with the linemen having no hands???
Do you even want this team to play the ball?
Also Frenzy and RSC? I personally don't think any player, particularly in stunty should start with RSC unless there is some major drawbacks! (like the proposed squigs, they have a penalty roll and OFAB). No hands isn't a drawback, it's an excuse for not playing the ball... |
_________________
"the eunuch should not take pride in its chastity" |
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asperon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 21, 2003 - 10:36 |
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| cataphract wrote: | does anyone else see the problem with the linemen having no hands???
Do you even want this team to play the ball?
Also Frenzy and RSC? I personally don't think any player, particularly in stunty should start with RSC unless there is some major drawbacks! (like the proposed squigs, they have a penalty roll and OFAB). No hands isn't a drawback, it's an excuse for not playing the ball... |
For all i care they can loose Frenzy as well as RSC, its not the skills in this case that are important, but a atempt to create a team that needs to protect its runners, since they will be the only reliable ball carriers. Since RSC obviously is such a bif issue for ppl (and i agree, the vamplings can cause a lot of mayhem with it) consider it droped. Any other skills the giant rats should have, or should they just drop 10k i price? |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 21, 2003 - 12:59 |
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when making a team it is best to make them too weak to start coz you can add in skills and things but it is harder to start with a stronger team and then start removing skills... you say you want a team that needs to protect its runners then might i suggest a weak roster that can be tweaked??
0-1 Rat Ogre 6 5 3 8 Big Guy, Frenzy, Mighty Blow Prehensile Tail, Wild Animal (GSP)
0-6 Nightrunner 8 1 4 6 Dodge, Stunty (AP) (could be reduced to Ma 7)
0-16 Giant Rat 6 2 2 7 Stunty, No Hands, Dodge (AP)
0-2 Assasins 6 2 2 6 Stunty Dodge Poisoned Dagger (AP)
i think that as there will be 4 or 6 ball carriers then they should be good. naturally they are weaker than the rest of the players and they have less armour to accomodate their speed increase... with these stats they surely need to be well protected from my St6 RSC block tackle mino and my 2 carvers!!
The giant rats are less agile than any normal skaven so have given them ag2 and dodge. as they wont have the ball the only thing the ag will apply to will be dodging, and even then they have stunty...
An assasin or two adds a bit of sneakiness into the rats play as well so i thought it would be good fluffwise also to include some.
Finally i think rerolls should be rather expensive... after all how can you teach a bunch of giant rats the finer points of bloodbowl!!! i think 70 or 80k would be fine but then again i may be wrong!!! let me know what you think! |
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Jugular
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 21, 2003 - 14:12 |
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The Giant Rats stats sounds like a bad idea. something that runs on four legs will not have a problem dodging anywhere. They would also be ridculously fast as rats tend to be. How about cutting the nightrunners into some sorta slower weak skaven lineman and making the rats Ma 9 and Ag 4 it's not much of a poblem seeing as they can't ball handle. However I think a whole different flavour altogether may be better I just don't see those Giant Rats as a good fluff aspect. How about rat swarms like in Warhammer.
0-2 Rat Swarm Ma 4 St 5 Ag 0 AV 10 Wild Animal, Regen, Tackle (G) 100k.
0-2 Nightrunners Ma 8 St 1 Ag 4 AV 5 dodge stunty (A) 80k.
0-1 Rat Ogre.
0-16 Plagued Rat Lineman Ma 5 St 2 Ag 3 Av 7 Foul appearance, Bone Head (G) 50k.
ReRolls 70k
Ok Regen representing there are always more rats about!. Bone Head - the guy stops to itch that really annoying spot thats been annoying him for hours. Okmaybe its not a particularly stunty team. But maybe those Plagued lineman could be stuntified. Maybe the Rat Swarm is too strong St4 might bring them down a notch providing lots of anoying WA traps.  |
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Traitor
Joined: Nov 18, 2003
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Nov 21, 2003 - 17:25 |
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Instead of basing them around giant rats(which seems to cause alot of problems), base it around skaven slaves. These are the lowest wretches even among the skaven, so being stunty wont be too much of a problem. Profile along the lines of 7 2 3 6, stunty.
Giant rats could be a bit harder, but not so common, perhaps 0-2 or 0-4. Stats around 6 2 3 6, wild animal, frenzy, right stuff, stunty, no hands. These would be bloated, hideously mutated rats bred for war, so I dont see too much of a problem with them being slower than skaven slaves.
0-1 rat ogres, you all know those.
Since this is basically a team of lesser creatures, I figure they need someone to goad them into action: Enter the slaver: 6 3 3 7. One or two maximum.
I liked the idea of a rat swarm, so here's my take on it: 6 2 2 6 frenzy, wild animal, stunty, regeneration, razor sharp claws, no hands, never get spp's. RSC does make sense on this one, a horde of rats wont block you, they'll eat your eyeballs, and regeneration is to represent that lots of damage would just scatter the swarm and it might reform eventually. It is however, a swarm of rats, so it wont improve. No star player ratswarms for you, sorry. I imagine this being 0-1, since all the rats would join in one swarm. They shouldn't be able to use team rerolls, but it feels stupid to give them the big guy trait, so I just didn't bother.
Rerolls should be expensive as hell, you're dealing mostly with animals and morons(slaves).
I didn't bother assigning costs to these, since I honnestly dont know enough to try. Im sure I screwed up with other things too, Im missing alot of sleep. I still think the main idea is sound though; basing the team around slaves instead of giant rats. |
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GreySeerFerretBitten
Joined: Oct 29, 2003
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Nov 21, 2003 - 23:49 |
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Hey folks.
I don't have much to add to the discussion, however, I wanted to encourage not only the discussion but the development of a Skaven-like stunty team. The more teams the better in my opinion. Not sure I like team having so few ball handlers as scoring is what Skaven are about. I did like Traitor's rat swarm idea as well and I don't have a problem with the Big Guy trait, as on a roll of one the swarm isn't moving in a coherent direction (and as well couldn't use re-rolls).
The Grey Seer FerretBitten |
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knottt
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 22, 2003 - 00:39 |
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[quote="Traitor"]
I liked the idea of a rat swarm, so here's my take on it: 6 2 2 6 frenzy, wild animal, stunty, regeneration, razor sharp claws, no hands, never get spp's. RSC does make sense on this one, a horde of rats wont block you, they'll eat your eyeballs, and regeneration is to represent that lots of damage would just scatter the swarm and it might reform eventually. It is however, a swarm of rats, so it wont improve. [quote]
huh wild animal with st 2  |
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Traitor
Joined: Nov 18, 2003
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Nov 22, 2003 - 03:02 |
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Yes, a wild animal with strength 2. A rat swarm is not very efficient offensive unit, and would have problems hurting most blood bowl players. Just nibbling at their boots wont do it, they need to attack the most sensitive parts of a person to cause damage. All this means that strong, hardy people(like most blood bowl players are suppose to be)wont just fall over and die the first time a rat swarm nibbles at them.
Maybe the rat swarm should get dirty player as well, to represent the fact that once someone is on the floor, its alot easier to rip out an eye or take a bite out of the... more sensitive parts of the male anatomy. |
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Jugular
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 22, 2003 - 03:18 |
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nah a WA with st2 which can't get SPP's is just a liability. Without block you could place pretty muich any player next to it and it'd cause a turnover. Fluff is important but making such a player would be foolish. st4 hsould be the least it has. These are obviously frenzied rats, and a large number of them which means they could do some serious damage. RSC, WA and Regen are enough i think and although they have no hands if they were to clamber over a ball it woudln't be easy to pick up. A high Av as even if you stamp on a few or twist a few necks theyr unlikely to all scatter off or all decide to lie down. So by giving them an extremely low Ag and having WA they are unlikely to be running in TD's especially given their lack of development. So in my own conclusion. 0-2 Ma 6 St 4 Ag 1 AV 10 RSC WA Regen Big Guy (no skills) 100k (I like the DP player idea but they might be too strong) |
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vigil
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Nov 22, 2003 - 03:52 |
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Another direction this team could be taken, following traitor's suggestions is to include Warplock Rat Ogres, Skaven Slaves and maybe Giant Rats all with the Really Stupid trait with 0-6 packmasters being used to goad them into action. I like the idea of Clan Moulder slavers deciding they can 'breed' the perfect bloodbowl team fluffwise, and the need to position packmasters around the field to keep your teammates moving offers us the desired 'new play' for the team.  So, leaving the balancing for other people.. Something like...
0-2 Warplock Rat Ogres (Vanilla Rat Ogres + Really Stupid + Tentacles? Extra Head?) 140k
0-6 Packmasters 7/2/3/7 Dodge, Stunty, Agi, Ph 50k
0-16 Skaven slaves 7/2/3/6 Dodge, Stunty, Really Stupid, Agi, Thrall Ph 20k (their armour is meant to be worse than your general skaven according to warhammer)
0-4 Giant Rats 6/2/4/7 Frenzy, No Hands, Really Stupid, Stunty, OFAB, Horns
So yeah.. Just some ideas. I'm sure half of it is unbalnced, but maybe there's a new playing style of team there. Pathetic slaves, charging rats, hideously modified rat ogres and packmasters standing around the field, whipping the team into action.
All the RS, OFAB is going to result in RR use galore but perhaps the callous treatment of the team means rerolls can be quite cheap - after all if you can whip 5 slaves to death to teach one how to pass, it doesn't take to long to find a fast learner.
...
As for changing the rat ogres: They need the RS trait so that they're not used to smarten up other players - other suggestions rather than tinkering with the rat ogres is Warplock trolls, Moulder bred Beasts, or just keep them as is and explain that they help RS rolls because a giant slavering rat ogre behind any slave makes him pick up the pace! |
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Traitor
Joined: Nov 18, 2003
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Nov 22, 2003 - 04:02 |
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AV 10? And strength 4? Plus RCS and frenzy, and making them 0-2? I can see your point in that my design might be underpowered(since it'd cause alot of turnovers), but going completely in the other direction is not the answer. Rat swarms should be an auxiliary unit, not the all-smiting, flestearing, horrible monster of uber-doom. Stunties generally have poor armor and strength, and with those rules, the rats would be likely to cause 1 casualty per turn.
Maybe add block to my design to make them somewhat harder on the offence, and cause fewer turnovers, but that's really all I really want to give them. The focus of the skaven team should be scoring touchdowns while rats and the rat ogre distract the opposing team. It's not to slaughter the entire opposing team because a bunch of angry rats are more dangerous than a black orc jumping up and down your head. |
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