Ansbach
Joined: Jul 12, 2004
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 Posted:
Jan 06, 2009 - 16:36 |
 
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It is definitely a "meta-game exploit" - but I also don't think it's a very good one - it's getting way overrated. Not having the rerolls is definitely a disadvantage.
However, I do agree that if you are getting an extra - TS for for not having any rerolls and then you get one (from Pro), that extra disadvantage should go away. |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Jan 06, 2009 - 16:50 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | westerner wrote: | Not quite, Sillysod. There's an opportunity cost of spending the double on Leader. Since doubles usually gives access to better skills, by giving up the double you are sacrificing the chance to take a superior skill (say 3TS value?) for the discount price of 2TS. That's an opportunity cost of 1TS, which covers the 1TS we were quibbling about earlier.  |
There is an opporutinty cost... however thats not something which TS should measure, partly because in theory the "better" skills are already taken account of and partly because all your skill rolls might be doubles. |
i agree, TS is supposed to measure the ability of a team to win next match and thus, 2 teams with equal TS should ideally have 50/50 - win chances (regardless of how hard / easy it was to buy the players / skill them up, etc.)
so to make my point clear: if you take 2 fresh Nurgle-teams, for example ('picking that race 'cause their RR are expensive and they have Leader-access on doubles) if 2 coaches play those teams (say with only 1 RR, each) and now one wins enough money after his 1st match to afford a 2nd RR, that team will be valued TS + 12, while the other coach might be lucky enough to roll a double on a beastman after his 1st match and spend that on leader - his team will then be valued TS + 2.
While i would agree, that a RR might be worth a bit more than a Leader - player, because that player may get injured before the 1st RR gets spent or before 2nd half or (depending on the team) the coach might choose not to field him, but it's surely fairly even.
(actually, as SillySod pointed out: Leader might be at an advantage vs. Flings, since that RR can't be stolen  )
Current TS-evaluation values the one team +10, however and that is just not correct imho.
(EDIT: grammar) |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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Jan 06, 2009 - 18:02 |
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| Ansbach wrote: | | It is definitely a "meta-game exploit" - but I also don't think it's a very good one - it's getting way overrated. Not having the rerolls is definitely a disadvantage. |
I agree, Leader issue aside, eliminating the low-reroll rebate entirely is probably overstating the problem. Not having rerolls is a huge disadvantage for teams that lack Block or want to roll single dice. It works better for teams like Dwarfs that have plenty of Block and don't rely on passing much. |
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Last edited by westerner on %b %06, %2009 - %18:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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Jan 06, 2009 - 18:04 |
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| treborius wrote: | | Current TS-evaluation values the one team +10, however and that is just not correct imho. |
I agree. For avoidance of doubt only, the point I was debating with Sillysod was whether a Leader would claw back all of the TS rebate or most of it. |
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Draxus
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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Jan 09, 2009 - 02:54 |
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Don't change the TS rebate... make [B] div have overtime... where teams with RR left at the end of a tie game get to carry it on to OT... thus properly balancing out 0 RR issue |
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Nazdakka
Joined: Dec 21, 2007
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Jan 10, 2009 - 00:21 |
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Are the 0 RR teams winning? That's the key question. Only if the answer is yes is this a sensible idea. |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Jan 11, 2009 - 13:41 |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Jan 11, 2009 - 14:10 |
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That just shows the leader exploit. They have a reroll, it`s just not counted as such.
Besides... 11/2/5 isn`t a stellar record.. |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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Jan 11, 2009 - 14:24 |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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Jan 11, 2009 - 14:43 |
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mmmm
So what?
Should I link a few teams with rerolls and a good winning record?
If, in average, 0 rerolls teams are doing better than teams with rerolls, then the rebate is false. But that a few teams performs well doesn't prove a point, me thinks.
(which doesn't mean I do think that -5/-10 is correct, I simply don't know. It would need statistical observations) |
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vanGorn
Joined: Feb 24, 2004
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Jan 11, 2009 - 17:30 |
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The linked teams were drwaven ones.
It's a well known fact, that dwarves need less rerolls.
It's no coincidence, that their rerolls are the cheapest.
Thus, the evidentiary value of those examples is rather questionable, isn't it? |
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Then we will climb the ladder.
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 11, 2009 - 17:42 |
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It works pretty well for 60-70k RR teams too including Halflings, Skaven, Norse, and Chaos. |
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catmando
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
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Jan 11, 2009 - 17:45 |
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Get rid of the rebate, it's cheesy. I played one of the teams Shadow46x2 sent a link to and the guy I played against actually bragged about the zero re-roll rebate benefits. It allows the powergamers to game the system. Restore balance. No RR's = Harder to win games, or at least it should still be. |
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"The World makes the Man makes the World." |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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Jan 11, 2009 - 18:08 |
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If you modify the TS formula on the basis of what is perceived as cheesy, you set a precedent for doing the same in other areas, such as 6+ DP's.
Better would be to reduce the rebate to the point where it accurately reflects the real disadvantage of low rerolls.
Repeating what I suggested earlier..
0 Team Rerolls: -8 TS rebate (2 less than now)
1 Team Rerolls: -4 TS rebate (1 less than now)
0 Team Rerolls + Leader: -5TS rebate (5 less than now)
1 Team Rerolls + Leader: -1TS rebate (4 less than now) |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2009 - 18:19 |
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