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Petition: Remove the -10/-5 TS rebate for 0/1 re-rolls
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Poll
SHould the TS rebate be removed?
Remove the TS rebate
58%
 58%  [ 109 ]
Keep things as they are
23%
 23%  [ 43 ]
Keep things as they are, but fix the Leader thing
18%
 18%  [ 34 ]
Total Votes : 186


Shrap



Joined: Sep 18, 2006
Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 12:32 Reply with quote Back to top
Gatts wrote:
To try the reroll thingy out i made myself 2 vampire teams, one entirely without rerolls and one with a rather regular amount of them. Wish em luck, oh and can i get any bets on what team will be more sucsesfull?



There is a big differance between having no reroll vamps and dwarves. I'll be interesting to see what comes of you experiment, but I think the exploit is mostly in the form of teams with lots of skills to start and can afford to not have the rerolls...ie thralls have no skills so any skull/pows will be bad, vamps with reroll dependancy for OFAB, no block or dodge on them either.
Dwarves have block and tackle to start and from there can get guard very easily to max out 2D blocks then you get MB and pro, on doubles its leader. Quick, easy and dirty.
sk8bcn



Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 12:44 Reply with quote Back to top
Shrap wrote:
Gatts wrote:
To try the reroll thingy out i made myself 2 vampire teams, one entirely without rerolls and one with a rather regular amount of them. Wish em luck, oh and can i get any bets on what team will be more sucsesfull?



There is a big differance between having no reroll vamps and dwarves. I'll be interesting to see what comes of you experiment, but I think the exploit is mostly in the form of teams with lots of skills to start and can afford to not have the rerolls...ie thralls have no skills so any skull/pows will be bad, vamps with reroll dependancy for OFAB, no block or dodge on them either.
Dwarves have block and tackle to start and from there can get guard very easily to max out 2D blocks then you get MB and pro, on doubles its leader. Quick, easy and dirty.


vampires take pro anyway as a skill choice, so I guess there could be something interesting in the test

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SillySod



Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 13:48 Reply with quote Back to top
Gatts wrote:
To try the reroll thingy out i made myself 2 vampire teams, one entirely without rerolls and one with a rather regular amount of them. Wish em luck, oh and can i get any bets on what team will be more sucsesfull?


You know, I know, heck even Pac knows, that vampires are not the team that will benefit from this so its not a good test Smile

Edit: I've played with this kind of team before and I remember that Ameranth ran a successful low RR smack team that made good use of blodge vampires. If you want to try and make the zero RR thing work you're going to need to get a pretty sleek system going, I'd recommend:
- you really dont need more than 2-3 on the pitch at once (you really dont).
- you dont want 5 vampires, keep the cash saved away if you have spares. I reckon you can get by with only 3 vampires. At that TS not much is going to KO/cas the vamps and each vampire you dont use adds 12TS.
- wizards are funny if you ever end up with spare cash.
- I have no idea whether you want block, dodge, or pro first... my instinct is to go with dodge because it immediately gives you an unstoppable ball carrier.
- maybe you'll have to create an ordinary vampire team and then drop it down to zero RR later, this might be a team which only functions after you've skilled a few vampires and a leader.

OK, maybe just maybe this could work(ish). Good luck Smile

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Last edited by SillySod on %b %17, %2009 - %14:%Jan; edited 1 time in total
Frankenstein



Joined: Aug 02, 2003
Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 13:51 Reply with quote Back to top
SillySod wrote:
Gatts wrote:
To try the reroll thingy out i made myself 2 vampire teams, one entirely without rerolls and one with a rather regular amount of them. Wish em luck, oh and can i get any bets on what team will be more sucsesfull?


You know, I know, heck even Pac knows, that vampires are not the team that will benefit from this so its not a good test Smile

Sounds like testing halflings without trees! Wink
Draxus



Joined: Nov 14, 2004
Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 15:37 Reply with quote Back to top
Shrap wrote:
Gatts wrote:
To try the reroll thingy out i made myself 2 vampire teams, one entirely without rerolls and one with a rather regular amount of them. Wish em luck, oh and can i get any bets on what team will be more sucsesfull?



There is a big differance between having no reroll vamps and dwarves. I'll be interesting to see what comes of you experiment, but I think the exploit is mostly in the form of teams with lots of skills to start and can afford to not have the rerolls...ie thralls have no skills so any skull/pows will be bad, vamps with reroll dependancy for OFAB, no block or dodge on them either.
Dwarves have block and tackle to start and from there can get guard very easily to max out 2D blocks then you get MB and pro, on doubles its leader. Quick, easy and dirty.


Then the teams with lots of block to start have undervalued TS.
Shrap



Joined: Sep 18, 2006
Post   Posted: Jan 17, 2009 - 23:11 Reply with quote Back to top
Draxus wrote:
Shrap wrote:
Gatts wrote:
To try the reroll thingy out i made myself 2 vampire teams, one entirely without rerolls and one with a rather regular amount of them. Wish em luck, oh and can i get any bets on what team will be more sucsesfull?



There is a big differance between having no reroll vamps and dwarves. I'll be interesting to see what comes of you experiment, but I think the exploit is mostly in the form of teams with lots of skills to start and can afford to not have the rerolls...ie thralls have no skills so any skull/pows will be bad, vamps with reroll dependancy for OFAB, no block or dodge on them either.
Dwarves have block and tackle to start and from there can get guard very easily to max out 2D blocks then you get MB and pro, on doubles its leader. Quick, easy and dirty.


Then the teams with lots of block to start have undervalued TS.


Yeah that could very well be true...I guess I've really only been speaking the whole time to dwarves because I haven't really looked at many other teams using 0 rerolls. So I have to say the other teams may or may not benefit. But I know dwarves benefit.
westerner



Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 00:10 Reply with quote Back to top
I would agree that dorfs are an ideal race to use with this. Most other races are going to be prone to turnovers without rerolls.

Another tactic would be to skill up a team with rerolls initially, then discard when they are not as essential. Even without the current rebates, tailoring the number of rerolls to the skill level of the team can make sense. I occasionally see developed teams with 6+ rerolls and I don't think that makes sense in a TS driven environment.

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Fallen00



Joined: Oct 16, 2008
Post   Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 18:50 Reply with quote Back to top
I've did that westerner, thats not worth it. You're much better starting with no rerolls and just hoarding cash to bloat your TR

Humans are pretty good with no reroll.

any roster that has a few reroll skills and at least 2 dudes with block on the roster will do fine without any rerolls.
clarkin



Joined: Oct 15, 2007
Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2009 - 13:15 Reply with quote Back to top
I'd like to support this. I think simply removing the -10/-5 rebate for having 0/1 RR would be a perfect fix. I think the lower TS from not having the rerolls themselves is enough.

I've played against a lot of B teams with 0/1 RRs by design as well as run my own 0RR dark elf team. It's a challenge having almost no rerolls, but overall you are unfairly compensated TS wise and so you consistently get easier games than you should.

Please remove the TS rebate for teams with 0/1 RRs.
Snappy_Dresser



Joined: Feb 11, 2005
Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2009 - 20:22 Reply with quote Back to top
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=525787

and it's his only [B] team. Nuff said.

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Chingis



Joined: Jul 09, 2007
Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2009 - 22:52 Reply with quote Back to top
clarkin wrote:
I'd like to support this. I think simply removing the -10/-5 rebate for having 0/1 RR would be a perfect fix. I think the lower TS from not having the rerolls themselves is enough.


Another way to look at it is that effectively (in relative TS terms) the opposition coach's first two re-rolls cost an extra 50,000 each.

Are a dwarf team's first two re-rolls really worth 90,000 each? Are a chaos team's first two re-rolls really worth 120,000 each?
Draxcore



Joined: Jan 28, 2006
Post   Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 06:12 Reply with quote Back to top
Lower TS for not taking any rr's? If you are to stupid to take rr's for when you do have bad luck, then you deserve the results put to reward a team for poor team building is stupid and rewards rules lawyers.
SillySod



Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Post   Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 15:13 Reply with quote Back to top
Draxcore wrote:
Lower TS for not taking any rr's? If you are to stupid to take rr's for when you do have bad luck, then you deserve the results put to reward a team for poor team building is stupid and rewards rules lawyers.


I love how this argument comes up time and again. "Its poor teambuilding and its beats me every time" Sad Teambuilding is building a team, good teambuilding is creating a team that you think will have an edge over your opponents. What I think you mean is unconventional teambuilding.

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Snappy_Dresser



Joined: Feb 11, 2005
Post   Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 16:42 Reply with quote Back to top
No Sillysod, POOR team building. When a 129 TS Khemri team has 4 DPs and Multiple 51 Spp players but no rerolls, my cherry elves are still going to beat them (or tie, as the case may be). But they are going to mulch the elves for no better reason than the prick enjoys mulching elves. Now there is no reason that this behavior needs to be tolerated, let alone enabled, even in an open environment.

Abusing a loophole isn't smart, it's abuse.

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<PurpleChest> the way it splooshed got me so excited

"I hear that shadow is a douchebag"
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SillySod



Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Post   Posted: Jan 25, 2009 - 17:25 Reply with quote Back to top
These teams are built to win. If they achieve their wins then they havent been built poorly. When you call it "abuse" what you really mean is you think that its too good and therefore undesirable (and I agree with that btw). Be careful about throwing the term around because you can label any teambuilding strategy thats effective as being abuse, such as taking block on everyone or firing all nigglers (some people condemn these methods of teambuilding as being lame). I think that it needs fixing but the way to do that isnt to comdemn everyone using it as being a prick that enjoys mulching elves.

Classic case of "Be as good as you can be within exactly one standard deviation of average".

_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.

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