johan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Jan 05, 2009 - 01:15 |
 
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As you may know, having 0 re-rolls gives a special rebate of -10 to the team strength, while having 1 re-roll gives a -5 rebate.
This has never been particularly relevant before, since there was little use of optimizing for TS. But with the advent of the Black Box division, the TS calculation has become very important, as it's the key to mathcups.
And as we can see, a not insignificant number of teams (including one of my own) take advantage of the RR rebate, by deliberately having 0 or 1 RR to push the TS down, hoping that the RR won't be as necessary if one can only overwhelm the opponent's team by superior power. This creates some strange - and quite frankly, frequently badly unbalanced - matches.
By having this odd meta-game feature, players are encouraged to game the system and create teams that wouldn't be reasonable if it weren't for the TS rebate. This leads the game in strange directions, and is also another feature that make bashing teams more potent in Black Box.
Christer, I urge you to remove this TS rebate. It serves no good, and enables people to meta-game the system in ways that I believe most people would agree are not helpful for the game.
(A separate but related issue is that you still get this rebate if you get Leader re-rolls, thus allowing a team to have access to a re-roll while still gaining the TS rebate. Even if you think the TS rebate is okay, you might still want to at least take Leader re-rolls into account.) |
_________________
”It's very sad
To see the ancient and distinguished game that used to be
A model of decorum and tranquillity
Become like any other sport, a battleground...”
—Benny Andersson & Björn Ulvaeus, Chess |
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Irgy
Joined: Feb 21, 2007
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Jan 05, 2009 - 01:25 |
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Well, I was going to vote in agreement of what you said, but there's no option in the poll. You might want to fix that.
This was one of the many suggestions I made of what to take out of the TS formula to make optimising your team for TS involve making a good bloodbowl rather than just gaming the TS formula so I'm strongly in favour. |
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johan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 05, 2009 - 01:26 |
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Fixed.  |
_________________
”It's very sad
To see the ancient and distinguished game that used to be
A model of decorum and tranquillity
Become like any other sport, a battleground...”
—Benny Andersson & Björn Ulvaeus, Chess |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 05, 2009 - 01:31 |
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I think the rebate could do with being diminished but its not especially broken until you throw in leaders and masterchefs. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Fallen00
Joined: Oct 16, 2008
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Jan 05, 2009 - 02:25 |
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Leader is already bad. No need to make it worse.
Remove the rebate or whatever you call it. |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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Jan 05, 2009 - 02:34 |
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It does feel like an exploit currently, but I think it should be tweaked rather than totally eliminated. I voted "keep as is" as it's the closest option.
Rebate for 0/1 rerolls should be decreased to -8/-4, the minimum value of a reroll.
Having a Leader should clawback 75% (3TS) of your rebate, reflecting the small risk that he might get knocked off pitch.
Example:
0 Team Rerolls: -8 TS rebate
1 Team Rerolls: -4 TS rebate
0 Team Rerolls + Leader: -5TS rebate
1 Team Rerolls + Leader: -1TS rebate |
_________________
\x/es |
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Draxus
Joined: Nov 14, 2004
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Jan 05, 2009 - 03:31 |
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"LRB 4 Team Rating (TR) is a good measure of a team's long-term capabilities, and is thus important for determining winnings, handicaps, etc. However, it is not always a good indicator of how strong a team will be in its next game, since it does not take into account injuries (both permanent and MNG), very poor or very good skill combinations (and stat bonuses), concentration of SPPs on one player, money in the treasury, etc.
The purpose of TS is to fill that gap by providing a quick reference to give you an idea of how strong a team will be next game."
I have been playing 0 and 1 RR teams for a very long time in ranked (since at least Date: 2005-04-04) I see no need to remove the rebate cause in truth the teams are about that weak TS wise. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 05, 2009 - 04:10 |
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| westerner wrote: | | Having a Leader should clawback 75% (3TS) of your rebate, reflecting the small risk that he might get knocked off pitch. |
It should remove the entire rebate, leader is already sickeningly cheap so you've already got your "discount for risk". |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Fallen00
Joined: Oct 16, 2008
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Jan 05, 2009 - 05:11 |
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You need a double for Leader.. and you're wasting a skill to have an extra reroll if the guy is on the pitch.
Anyway -- Adjust TS rebate strongly. Or just completely remove it. You're paying 40-70k already for a reroll, no need of a penalty for it. |
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treborius
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Jan 05, 2009 - 18:39 |
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| SillySod wrote: | | I think the rebate could do with being diminished but its not especially broken until you throw in leaders and masterchefs. |
i agree.
i voted: keep things, but fix leader.
what i'd really like to see changed as well, though, is the connection of RR-cost (in terms of gold) to RR-value (in terms of TS) - i don't quite see why it should be worth 4 to 7 TS depending on the race you're playing.
playing Ogres alot in B, i've found that for the first 2 RR i would have to "pay" TS=22 (including the rebate) - this really doesn't seem worth it - not that they wouldn't need RR badly, but when having the choice of facing a team at TS=192 with 2 RR or facing one at TS=170 w/o RR - i'll instantly choose the latter.
not to mention, that it's hard enough to play them already and Ogres can't even choose Leader to remedy that problem 
so maybe rebates need fixing, but i think that revaluating Leader and RR in general are more important.
EDIT: Actually 2 RR for Ogres = 24TS |
Last edited by treborius on %b %06, %2009 - %18:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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Fallen00
Joined: Oct 16, 2008
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Jan 05, 2009 - 22:43 |
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theres no need to fix leader -- its already bad!
why have a leader when you could just buy a reroll? buy a reroll and not waste a skill in the process.. or waste a skill to get a gimp reroll for the same TS cost(or more?) of a vanilla reroll.
Remove penatly for the first two rerolls. Problem fixed.
Also removing the penalty for the first two rerolls would solve the chef problem as well. |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 06, 2009 - 00:27 |
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Leader is a fantastic skill even before you abuse it to get the discount for having no RR. It costs only 2TS rather than the 4-7TS that a standard RR costs. Also notice that it is halfling-proof and that player values are subject to all sorts of TS discounts so often it will be worth even less than 2TS.
When you say it "wastes" a skill... I can see what you mean but its effect on team development is totally irrelevant to individual games. To rate it you need to compare the player (say a beastman with block) with leader to an otehrwise indentical player who does not have leader. You should not compare the value of leader with the value of claw (for example)... they are two different things with two different valuations. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
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Jan 06, 2009 - 00:38 |
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Not quite, Sillysod. There's an opportunity cost of spending the double on Leader. Since doubles usually gives access to better skills, by giving up the double you are sacrificing the chance to take a superior skill (say 3TS value?) for the discount price of 2TS. That's an opportunity cost of 1TS, which covers the 1TS we were quibbling about earlier. |
_________________
\x/es |
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morraywolfymax
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jan 06, 2009 - 00:45 |
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I think if your willing/silly enough to have no re-rolls then you deserve to have a lower TS as you're at a massive disadvantage if you cant re-roll your inevitable bad luck.
Of course that is completely eliminated by the fact winning and losing doesn't really matter in Blackbox and the only thing that does is smashing the other guys team in... |
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Anyone named Vampy is ace! |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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Jan 06, 2009 - 05:30 |
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| westerner wrote: | | Not quite, Sillysod. There's an opportunity cost of spending the double on Leader. Since doubles usually gives access to better skills, by giving up the double you are sacrificing the chance to take a superior skill (say 3TS value?) for the discount price of 2TS. That's an opportunity cost of 1TS, which covers the 1TS we were quibbling about earlier. |
There is an opporutinty cost... however thats not something which TS should measure, partly because in theory the "better" skills are already taken account of and partly because all your skill rolls might be doubles. |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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