Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
|
 Posted:
Jan 27, 2009 - 16:24 |
 
|
| clarkin wrote: | Fair enough - you should know!
But in fairness, you don't have to be a bash-and-kill team to use 0RR to get an advantage. Any team that does will get an effective 10TS advantage in their matchups, which means easier games and more wins. I've been doing this with my 0RR dark elves for example. |
Yup, but in my (limited) experience, the advantage is stronger at low TS, where a couple MB + DP can make a very big difference. I might be mistaken though. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
|
westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jan 27, 2009 - 16:56 |
|
| clarkin wrote: | | Any team that does will get an effective 10TS advantage in their matchups, which means easier games and more wins. I've been doing this with my 0RR dark elves for example. |
Thanks for the data point. How often does your team suffer turnovers? |
_________________
\x/es |
|
clarkin
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
|
| Posted:
Jan 27, 2009 - 18:55 |
|
More rerolls = less turnovers, given same play & dice. Obviously.
That isn't the issue. The issue is the TS valuation, which I think is wrong. 0/1 RR teams don't need to be given a lower TS: they already have no TS added for reroll value compared to say a 4RR team. Since TS is used for B matchups, you get easier games than you should.
Naturally playing with 0 RRs (1 with leader) forces you to play very differently, but I think the problem is you are given a better team for your TS than you deserve. |
|
|
clarkin
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
|
| Posted:
Jan 27, 2009 - 18:58 |
|
| Eddy wrote: | | Yup, but in my (limited) experience, the advantage is stronger at low TS, where a couple MB + DP can make a very big difference. I might be mistaken though. |
I don't think it's the skills (MB versus block or dodge), but the relative difference between -10TS and your team's TS.
At TS 100 you get a 10% bonus. At TS 200 it's only 5%. So yeah 0/1RR bonus is better at low TS. |
|
|
westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jan 27, 2009 - 19:15 |
|
| clarkin wrote: | More rerolls = less turnovers, given same play & dice. Obviously.
That isn't the issue.
Naturally playing with 0 RRs (1 with leader) forces you to play very differently |
I think it's exactly the issue that the 0/1 RR rebate is trying to capture. Your comment about 0RR forcing different play suggests that it is not groundless.
Are you in a position to quantify how many turnovers per game your dark elves experience at low TS and high TS? |
_________________
\x/es |
|
Eddy
Joined: Aug 04, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jan 27, 2009 - 19:22 |
|
Yeah, but playing different does not necessarily mean it's bad. I mean, not having a RR might "force" a playstyle, but then again, having more skills open up more alternatives. They're juste different. |
_________________
'The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.'
Robert R. Coveyou |
|
westerner
Joined: Jul 02, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jan 27, 2009 - 19:29 |
|
That is possible. I do not have first hand knowledge on how effective 0RR would be for DE's, but am guessing it probably hinges on how many turnovers it causes. Hence my curiousity. |
_________________
\x/es |
|
clarkin
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
|
| Posted:
Jan 27, 2009 - 20:45 |
|
It's kinda hard to measure, but I definitely think I had an advantage with 0 RRs and leader so far (generally <150TS); ie that the odd turnover / failed blitz on ballcarrier from lack of RRs was more than offset by the skills/players advantage I had over my opponent. |
|
|
funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
|
| Posted:
Jan 27, 2009 - 21:49 |
|
Clarkin - There is nothing extraordinary about your Dark Elf record that would say the 0 rerolls is helping you. I see a team with twice as many games just short of your record who has 4 rerolls. Dark Elves are a pretty tough team to beat. |
|
|
Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
|
| Posted:
Jan 27, 2009 - 22:53 |
|
Getting back on topic:
I find it surprising that Christer's response was "do it yourself", and if it was, then he's making a mistake. Period.
All other issues aside (which are largely semantics), the 0-1 rebate should be removed, because it adds nothing to the game, and rewards a type of play that makes for a crappier playing experience.
Much like the NHL took steps to change Ice Hockey to make Trap style defence harder to play. The trap was a perfectly legal tactic, but it made for bad hockey, so it had to go.
Real leagues have done this again and again, shaping the game. Given that [B] is not an Open Division, we should take reasonable steps to discourage such behavior. Removing the TS rebate on what is an already imperfect and artificially added mechanism just makes sense. |
_________________
<PurpleChest> the way it splooshed got me so excited
"I hear that shadow is a douchebag"
-Mr Foulscumm |
|
clarkin
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
|
| Posted:
Jan 27, 2009 - 23:43 |
|
| funnyfingers wrote: | | Clarkin - There is nothing extraordinary about your Dark Elf record that would say the 0 rerolls is helping you. I see a team with twice as many games just short of your record who has 4 rerolls. Dark Elves are a pretty tough team to beat. |
I was playing up in TS consistently due to the scheduler, but yeah, it's hard to tell. Just reporting how I felt (that I had an advantage over having 3-4 RRs) |
|
|
Shrap
Joined: Sep 18, 2006
|
| Posted:
Jan 28, 2009 - 06:35 |
|
| clarkin wrote: | | funnyfingers wrote: | | Clarkin - There is nothing extraordinary about your Dark Elf record that would say the 0 rerolls is helping you. I see a team with twice as many games just short of your record who has 4 rerolls. Dark Elves are a pretty tough team to beat. |
I was playing up in TS consistently due to the scheduler, but yeah, it's hard to tell. Just reporting how I felt (that I had an advantage over having 3-4 RRs) |
After lookin at clarkins teams I'd say that it's hard to tell if teh TS rebate helped him or not at this point...after little more than 10 games. He does say it's helped and I believe he believes thats true anyway. He does seem to be a damn good coach. |
|
|
Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jan 28, 2009 - 07:49 |
|
Now it's official. The TS exploit just became the most successful tactic in the Box.
KhornedBeef's appropriately named Chaos abomination Playing My TS now sports the highest win rate in Blackbox (for teams over 25 games).
20/5/2 in 27 games. |
|
|
xcver
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
|
| Posted:
Jan 28, 2009 - 08:16 |
|
| Balle2000 wrote: | Now it's official. The TS exploit just became the most successful tactic in the Box.
KhornedBeef's appropriately named Chaos abomination Playing My TS now sports the highest win rate in Blackbox (for teams over 25 games).
20/5/2 in 27 games. |
Dunno if that record really is because of the 0 RR or just a statistical thing after almost 60 retired blackbox teams  |
_________________
"Power without perception is virtually useless and therefore of no true value!" - Ryouken - Master of the Hokuto no Ken Martial Arts |
|
xcver
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
|
| Posted:
Jan 28, 2009 - 08:19 |
|
7 of those wins were concedes by the way (which happens a lot in B) of which some were even on turn 1...clearly showing that other players seemingly dissaprove playing against such a team. |
_________________
"Power without perception is virtually useless and therefore of no true value!" - Ryouken - Master of the Hokuto no Ken Martial Arts |
|
|
|
Gnome Roster - how a...
Search
